Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

> For example, a heatpump can produce 5MW of heating from 1MW of electricity by concentrating the heat from the environment.

This does not sound right. Can you elaborate that further?



Sounds weird right? But it really is true: heat pumps pump heat, from one place to another, like a fridge and airco etc. Current heat pumps for home heating use can pump about 3-5 units of energy from outside to inside while the pump requires 1 unit of energy to run.

Trick (to understand maybe?) is to not convert the energy from chemical to heat, but to take existing heat energy and pump that around.


Peltier elements have a efficiency of about 30% of converting temperature differences back to electricity. So if a heat pump pumps 5 times of the energy it needs around, you only need 20% of that converted back to electricity for it to be a self-sustainable perpetuum mobile. Of course this is impossible, but where is the error?


I think Peltier modules or other thermo-electric generators only have <10% efficiency, not 30%.


A heat pump takes heat produced elsewhere (eg in air outside). If that stops or it gets too cold, the heat pump stops working. It's not a perpetuum mobile because it needs an external energy source (eg. the sun to warm the air)


"With 1 kWh of electricity, they can transfer 3 to 6 kWh of thermal energy into a building."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Coefficient of power of 3 to 6.


Nit: COP is "coefficient of performance [not power]"


Thanks.


Heat pumps use energy to _move_ heat, not create it. Your refrigerator, for example, moves heat from inside the fridge to outside the fridge. Your AC operates on the same principle. Pump the refrigerant in the other direction (note: mechanically this isn't possible in garden variety ACs) and you reverse the effect. Given the same amount of energy and typical conditions - this won't work to absurdly cold temperatures - it's several times more efficient to use it to run a heat pump than to convert it to heat directly.


I'm always amazed at how in the US there are "garden variety ACs" that lack the very small amount of parts needed to be reversible. I haven't seen any models like that for sale in Europe. Since having AC is also much more frequent in the US than in Europe it's really a shame that isn't just regulated as mandatory or something so that electrifying house heating becomes that much easier.


This also leads to the counterintuitive notion that it’s more efficient to burn natural gas to spin a turbine, and create electricity used to run a heat pump, than it is to burn that same natural gas directly for heat. It’s one of those situations that just shouldn’t make sense, until you do the math and see that it does (although only for ambient temperatures above a certain threshold.)


They start to lose efficiency roughly around freezing, so not very cold, and can cease working entirely at zero Fahrenheit or so. But geothermal can work much longer because you dig holes deep enough to use the ambient earth temperature instead of air.

This won't work in permanently frozen areas like Antarctica.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: