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> America

The American government, you mean.



For us foreigners, knowing that America has strong democratic roots, it is obvious (and worrying) that the majority of american citizens actually agree with that.


And yet, the vast majority of US citizens still agrees. I mean, they have the right to bear arms so that when they strongly disagree with their government, they can form an army and overthrow it (or something, whatever that amendment is for). If not that, at the very least they can strongly protest against the decisions and policy made, vote for a third party and break the two-party system, or vote / demand the voting and government system to be upturned to stop having to choose for the lesser or two evils in the form of a single man who will get most of the blame and responsibility for poor governmental decisions.


Well, can't blame the electorate this time: Obama is doing the opposite of what he always promised and got elected for.


That argument would be very convincing if Obama weren't elected twice. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...


You make it sound like there was a viable alternative, like the other party in the two-party system wasn't being held to ransom by ultra-nationalists.


That's because it is exactly the situation. Nobody is "held ransom" by anybody. But voters that think like you - low-information voters that can vote for anybody provided that he is "our guy" because "their guy" is The Devil himself - are exactly the reason why it happens again and again. And will happen until the majority abandons such mentality - which I personally wouldn't expect happening any time soon.


Voters that think like me live in a multipolar democracy that currently has a minority government in power. It's a tacit weakness of the US system that there can only be two viable parties. "If everyone changed and voted for a third person" is not a retort, because it still requires everyone jumping on the same bandwagon to effect a win; it'll just be a different brand of wagon.


It's a two party system, but the two parties don't have to be the same ones that are their now.

I don't understand the "viable alternative" arguement. You are saying "I won't vote for who I really want to vote, because they'll never win, because everyone else won't vote for them" <--- Is that what you mean? That seems self defeating.

...


If you had rapid iteration - elections every month - then a tertiary party would have something of a chance. As it stands, the iterations are so slow, that with FPTP voting, the two main parties will just move slightly to diminish the threat - the incumbent edifice carries on.

With preferential voting (or similar), you actually have the realistic probability of more than one party being in power. Here in Australia, the current government is formed from one major party, one minor party, and a couple of independents. It's not just 'mathematically possible', but a plausible outcome. That can't really happen with FPTP voting. Well, it can happen, but it's an oddity - see the current situation in the UK with the lib dems.

"I won't vote for who I really want to vote, because they'll never win, because everyone else won't vote for them"

The problem here is that by voting for someone whom you slightly prefer, you split the vote in a FPTP system, making them both lose out to the third person you didn't want in. If 60% of the population want a left-wing candidate, and they're split evenly-ish, they'll still lose out to the single right-wing candidate who only has 40%. It sounds self-defeating on paper, but in real terms it's more like self-preservation.


Two viable parties are plenty enough if they are real parties and not a collection of people that use different-colored jerseys to play the same game. Unfortunately, right now majority of voter will vote for "their guy" almost no matter what, which lets "their guy" very broad license on any bad behavior. If the voters would say "either you put a leash on NSA or we're not voting for you, period" - then things may have been going in different direction. But voters don't do that - if you see, for example, how many voters of party A supported government surveillance when party A is in power and when party B is in power, the difference is depressingly significant. Because if "our guys" do it, it must be good, but if "their guys" do it, it must be bad. That's how we get into such a mess.


Two parties aren't enough by any stretch, given how varied and multi-headed politics are. There are so many different facets and foci, that there's no way you can do a representative bipolar split across them all.

The other problem with systems that settle to two-party systems is that swing voters hold a disproportionate amount of power... which is ironic, given that the swing voters are usually not as politically interested as bloc supporters.


People do not vote for parties - at least technically - they vote for people.

>>> that swing voters hold a disproportionate amount of power

How is it a bad thing? You say people that actually look at the issues at hand and not just mindlessly pull the lever for "our guy" whoever he is hold "disproportionate amount of power". I say they should hold 100% of the power - or 100% of the voters should be like this. The fact that they aren't is exactly the problem!

>>> given that the swing voters are usually not as politically interested as bloc supporters.

"Politically interested" can mean different thing. If bloc voters' only interest is getting "their guy" in power, and keep him there whatever happens, I don't have any sympathy for such kind of political interest. And if you want to see how well it works for those bloc voters, see how well it worked for voters in Detroit or Chicago, who are constantly voting in crooks and mob men.


You are missing the fact that you have multipolar primaries.


We, the electorate, can be blamed for believing him. Or for feeling forced to choose the lesser of two evils.


The problem is Obama needs swing voters, and swing voters tend to vote kneejerk on national security. If he follows his personal values, he'll alienate them. It's a mess.


Well, as a republic, the government is usually about 2 years out of sync with the public: we won't actually get a chance to yell at them until next election.


>> America has strong democratic roots

No, America has strong American roots. Democracies and Republics both corrupt themselves over time.

America is unlike any other nation on earth, it's a hybrid, a democratic republic.


Are you so sure the government is opposed to the public in this?


No, but I think it's foolish to assume it isn't.




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