I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
Replacing a CPU means replacing a motherboard - this is mostly true for desktops too. And by the time you’re ready for a new CPU there is almost certainly a new type of RAM to get.
Understood - a new mainboard on the Framework website is around $700, which I still prefer to a new laptop.
I'd be willing to pay more over time to have better hardware over my laptop's life. Meaning, I'd rather pay ~$3200 over 10 years for a Framework + 2 mainboard upgrades + a RAM upgrade vs ~$2000 for a laptop that slowly gets worse over the same time period.
At least with desktop you sometimes get a CPU upgrade path.
For example, with Socket 939, I started with an Athlon 64 3000+, and upgraded later to an X2 4200+.
With Socket AM4, I skipped the first generation, got a Ryzen 2700X, then skipped the next generation, and then got a Ryzen 5900X! (But a solid 4 generations on the same socket!)
The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
Side complaint: I'm irked that the smaller surface laptop didn't continue with custom AMD chips since they were getting quite powerful in the last one.
Other complaint is that because of comments here I went looking at framework but it doesn't show what GPU comes with AMD processors so I'm going to have to not look at this on mobile.
I have a Thinkpad, Asus and surface 13" amd and none have fully scratched the itch for my go to machine. Asus is powerful enough but the build quality and durability are pure garbage.
Where is Asahi not far enough if I may ask? I've been daily driving it for 2 years by this point.
While it was not really useable for mainstream usecases in the beginning (no speakers, no webcam, other random issues), it did get better month by month and problems got resolved, I find useability equal to my x86 laptops now.
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today).
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).
There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.
The MBA has about a 20% better score on the single thread perf benchmark. It's better, but is it that significant ?
Especially as it has no active cooling. By the time thermal throttling kicks in the FW13 will keep chugging along. The MBP solves that issue, albeit at significantly higher price range.
Then again, the amount of RAM the FW13 can take will also help in many cases.
Right, I was going to bring up real world over geekbench.
For example, in the real world, you’ve gotta run most PC games using CrossOver on Mac with significant performance implications or have them not work at all, where modern Linux/x86 is nearly fully PC game compatible, and the AMD integrated graphics are much more game-optimized than Apple’s.
The arbitrary spec limits on Apple systems also get in your way. Want 4TB of storage? Want more than 32GB of RAM? You have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro even if you don’t want all the other features and expense of the Pro model.
Is all you want a USB-C port on the right side or an SD card reader? Pony up the extra $600 for the 14” MacBook Pro.
A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with.
This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.”
In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it.
I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.
There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on.
It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.
As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.
Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition.
macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup!
Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers.
I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid.
Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case.
Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available.
You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer.
You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience.
You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.
> Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
All the time?
Some of us have embraced IDE and graphical tooling in desktop systems since the 1990, after computers with desktop environments became affordable and we weren't stuck with text only interfaces.
I use a graphical IDE. That still means my hands are on the keyboard 90% of the time. Graphical IDEs still use a lot of keyboard shortcuts.
And like I said, the trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the world’s best trackpad.
To reiterate further, macOS demands you use the trackpad for gestures that aren’t demanded in other operating systems. They want you to buy their $150 trackpad even though you’re sitting at a desk and could easily use a $20-50 third party mouse.
I also am a programmer, and I care about all of these things on my laptop. I used my trackpad to click reply on this webpage, that's not a rare thing!
If you ever have a meeting where multiple people huddle around a laptop, that uses speakers, webcam, and microphone, and the MacBook does so much better in that scenario. We have interrupted meetings to swap from a Framework 16 (old CTO's laptop) to my MacBook Pro because participants simply couldn't hear those of us slightly further away from the laptop!
Zonal dimming is an advantage whenever you have black areas on the screen, and good fan tuning is an advantage if you want to compile some changes during a meeting without thinking "this task will turn my laptop into a jet engine and distract everyone else".
If you don't care about these things, then you can find way cheaper devices than the Framework that are cost competitive on core specs. Let's get some Framework pricing as a datum, Framework will sell me the AI 350 and 2.8K display for $1939CAD, it has no RAM, no SSD, no charger, no ports... if I add 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, charger, and 2xUSB-C, 1xHDMI, 1xUSB-A, we're looking at $2403CAD.
If I don't care about the less measurable components, why would I not buy something like this $400USD (~$550CAD) laptop [1] another poster in this thread found which also has an AI 350, 16GB RAM, and a 512GB SSD? I can buy four of these laptops for the price of the Framework and still have some cash left over! If I need more RAM I'm sure I can find a similarly cheapo laptop with a SODIMM by actually googling myself.
I think the reality is both you and I do care about these other parts, just maybe with a different minimum acceptable quality. But even inside PC land Framework is not competitive. Higher-end X1 Carbons have haptic trackpads at the same price point as Framework is offering diving boards. Across the market there are OLEDs for less money than Framework is charging for LCDs.
Personally, I don't care about trackpad alone so much, merely that the pointing device situation be acceptable. When programming, I type a lot and then do a few small mouse actions (e.g. expand some segment on a docs webpage, or mouse around some GUI to test the feature I have been building out). With a haptic trackpad, I can move my thumb from the spacebar to the top of the trackpad which is just below it and do my mouse actions without significant hand movement. This is not possible with a diving board design as the top of the trackpad is not clickable. A pointing stick is absolutely an acceptable solution to this problem, but Framework also does not offer those, again despite price-competitive offerings from, say, Lenovo offering it.
Let's briefly look at Lenovo's website. I can spec out a ThinkPad P14s Gen 6 here in Canada from Lenovo's website [2] with a 120Hz OLED screen, trackpoint, Ryzen AI 350, 1x16GB SODIMM and 512GB NVMe for $1529CAD, that's a fully working computer for less than the barebones Framework, with a better display and pointing device situation! I can use the empty second SODIMM port with a single 48GB stick and get 64GB, and stick the NVMe in an external enclosure to use as an external SSD, and deck it out with whatever market-rate drive and RAM I can get.
The Framework is broadly uncompetitive even if you won't consider a MacBook.
Like I said, Framework 13 trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the best in the world. It’s not any worse than the traditional trackpads that are on Lenovo systems (but I’d love to try the haptic one on the X9 Aura Edition).
This $2400 CAD price point is pure fantasy to me because that’s not what I paid. I paid $800 for a DIY system then about $200 or $300 for RAM and storage (USD).
The ThinkPad P14 you specced out is not significantly more competitive. I’ll use my US website prices to compare. The base model starts at $1044. It comes with a Ryzen AI 340 which is a far worse chip for integrated graphics than my 7640u, it’s like 60% of the speed of the 7640u graphics. The display in that model is the base model display, not a 120Hz OLED, similar specs to the Framework. You have to add $10 for fingerprint reader then I have to still buy a new stick of RAM and a bigger SSD.
I also tried a Lenovo T14 in store and felt like it had way too much deck flex. I had no idea if the P series is the same but Lenovo felt plasticky. Framework is an aluminum chassis and the keyboard deck flex is about as good as it gets before you sign your life away to Apple.
The $500 cheapo spec laptops aren’t as nice as the Framework! I swear FW haters just insist that the hardware quality is budget tier and it must suck since it’s modular and that it’s not a premium-class system. But that is just not true. The Lenovo T14 felt cheap in comparison. If I get a $500 cheapo laptop I’m getting even more plastic and flex.
The ThinkPad T14 keyboard was not good enough for me. The Framework 13 has better keyboard. I like it better than my previous MacBook Pro! A $500 cheapo laptop isn’t going to satisfy me there.
In terms of Linux support, Framework is premium. The company itself focuses on it more than Lenovo. Hardware firmware gets updated automatically within Linux, and there’s a dedicated community surrounding it, which you won’t get on some random $500 HP laptop.
Maybe Lenovo offers an equivalent value or sometimes even a better value when there’s a sale. For my needs Apple couldn’t even get close to the kind of price I paid for what I got.
One more sidenote, you brought up buying the power supply separate, which I didn’t have to do because I already own an Anker Prime charger that I’ve used with my previous MacBook for being a superior travel solution compared to OEM. My monitor on my desk already provides USB-C PD. So really, if I buy a laptop that includes one it’s just e-waste that I don’t need.
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
It's more a matter of effiency and battery life, and that's mostly due to Linux more than inherent to the Framework or its hardware (try running Asahi Linux on an M MacBook and just notice your battery life be cut in half).
I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
My Framework runs faster, but a lot hotter, louder and with a lot less battery life. But I feel like I'm supporting a good company, a good cause, and I love that I can do software updates without fearing that it fucked everything up like every major macOS release does.
> I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
No doubt. And don't forget Apple nailed the trackpad experience too. But I seldom need to use my laptop for 20 hours away from an A/C outlet. It's nice, but not necessary for me.
With that being said, I personally am going to start abandoning the Apple ecosystem with each device that NEEDS to be replaced. I'm tired of features being forced into each software cycle, and I don't want any AI on my devices.
I'm going to lean into Framework (or keep my old T480 alive) and GrapheneOS when needed.
I have Home Assistant running on an old Raspberry Pi and it is fabulous. Way quicker than HomeKit, and easier to tinker with, along with all kinds of integrations.
That's a bit interesting, because IME linux on my framework 13 (7840u, 61wh battery) is surprisingly very solid. Fans almost never spin up (even with a windows KVM plus lot of firefox tabs), and I can get 6-8 hours easy, and 10+ hours of battery life if I push it (without even using power saving mode), on native linux (Fedora 40).
Windows 10 in comparison gives maybe 4-5 hours of battery plus lots of fan usage (but lesser ram usage often).
> You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon.
That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.
We bought all of ours for the idea of not being glued to the Apple ecosystem, and that reality has provided the performance our group requires. Each unit is the top of the line i7 and they last all day - any further requirements for even faster processing is handled by the server farm upstream. Supposedly Apple knows best about performance and longetivity by enforcing clamshell mode for users that want to use only an externally connected display.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc?
When a $39 hinge kit costs $70 after shipping, it sounds unlikely I'll be buying replacement parts from Framework, and there's really no 3rd party marketplace either.
Current items in my possession that are still in use and use USB-A
* keyboard
* mouse dongle
* webcam
* microphone
* mouse charging cable
* smart watch charging cable
* SATA hard drive dock
* 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
Things that use USB-C
* new SD card reader
* new headphones dongle
* smart phone charging cable
Some of the above could maybe be replaced with a USB-C equivalent, but they are still working and I'm still using them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the last week.
I also own something like three different Framework products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16 spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
Software-y people also have a way of being deliberately and performatively obtuse about their technology choices. This person's proclamation about not using any USB-A peripherals hits the same as when they feign surprise that any non-luddite would still have a use for printers, scanners, and fax machines.
Perhaps because Framework users are a bit more geeky and are more likely to use older hardware that still has USB-A?
USB-A is like what DB9 was. Easy to use, easy to plug-in, used on most devices. But there comes a point in time where we move on to the next connector, which is USB-C.
Most of my hardware is younger than ten years and everything has USB-C. I had a night light with micro-USB still but that was one of the last devices with a legacy port.
I have a stash of USB keyboards and mice in my closet, gathered from various sources for free. They're all USB-A because they're like 15 years old. The SD card reader I got somewhere ages ago is USB-A. My Xbox 360 controller is USB-A. So I got a USB-A module. Shrug.
Hi it's me from the past. I daily drive a VGA screen and a USB-A hub that connects my USB-A mouse and USB-A keyboard. My µSD-card reader uses USB-A. Ethernet adapter (for when I need a second NIC) is also USB-A but it came with an adapter to C so I have a choice there. All USB sticks I've ever seen are A, as well as all external hard drives. My charging cables are predominantly USB-A to micro, and nowadays I also need C for my phone. It's a bit annoying to need that extra C charging cable everywhere after we had already standardized on micro (except for Apple), but at least there's one standard now (xkcd.com/927) after the current devices die
Edit: forgot the printer. I connect it via USB-A on demand. /edit.
My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage. Buying a little HDMI-VGA converter was a lot cheaper than throwing a perfectly good screen away. My keyboard, mouse, and other peripherals also simply still work, seems silly to replace them just to get a C variant when 700-1300€ laptops have 1 or 2 C ports and always 2 A ports (I happen to be up-to-date on that, at least, because I helped someone select a new laptop ereyesterday)
I don't know what I'd need more than one C port for but I'm very happy that there is more than one A port on my laptop. Add in the standard set of 3.5mm jack, HDMI, ethernet, card reader, and charging, and you're already at more ports than even the new Framework 16 can physically fit in its frame, let alone nerd ports like serial or a second ethernet port. I considered buying a double-priced Framework earlier this year for the linux support and upgradeability (I really support their goal and would pay that premium if it were a suitable system) but this is one of the main reasons it just doesn't work for me: I'm actually a power user that regularly uses these connections and more
> My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage
I've got a Dell 120W USB-C charger from a 2017 Dell laptop, and I think you can go up to 240W now.
Now the highest power is a bit of a compatibility nightmare. I also have a 60W framework charger but it will only charge the Dell at 15W because that's the maximum mode that both the Dell and Framework charger support in common.
But given the barrel connectors are usually only compatible with the exact laptop they're sold with, that's probably an improvement.
I got a couple of type-A cards for my AMD FW13 and generally keep one loaded in the laptop for connecting to random junk like flash drives, charging cables for all sorts of widgets (like my bike light or head lamp), etc. I get dramatically more use out of the type-C cards. And in the quite-rare cases where I really need all of the type-C ports, I'll just eject the type-A card and plug directly into the chassis without the interposer at all rather than carry an extra type-C with me.
That said, there have been a few things that have been a bit less than deluxe on my FW13:
- The touchpad mechanical click is just not that good. It is too sensitive to exact pressure and touch location and I find holding it down and dragging to be excessively difficult compared to all other touchpads I've ever used.
- The delete key seems to oxidize and needs a bunch of hard mashing to get it to become responsive. No, it's not sticky or dirty.
- The air intake on the bottom is highly prone to getting blocked, mostly by my legs.
- There's no BIOS option to turn down the brightness or disable altogether the charging status LEDs, and I find that when I travel and can't keep the laptop in a separate room that it's bright enough to interrupt sleep. I've taped over them, but the light leakage from other crevices is still sufficient to be at least mildly annoying. The translucent Ethernet adapter card also acts like a lightbulb.
- The laptop ramps its current consumption from type-C very quickly and seems like it overshoots its target a little bit, and so it is the only device I have that trips out the OCP on some of my bricks.
- There's no BIOS option to artificially limit the charging power, and so I often trip the OCP on aircraft if my battery is not fully charged before plugging in. I don't want to carry a secondary small brick just to use on planes.
- The LCD backlight uniformity and color quality are mediocre, but for my use case I just don't really care that much. For me, this is a portable technical productivity machine and not an art studio, so it doesn't matter.
- The LCD backlight intensity curve is pretty bad. I very-frequently want to have a brightness in-between the lowest and second-lowest settings. I would love to get more control at the bottom and less at the top. It feels like it's linear when it should be logarithmic.
- The speakers suck. So does the volume control. I very rarely go above 10% volume and frequently don't have sufficient control resolution at the bottom. Anything above about 14-16% volume causes something to distort and other stuff to rattle. Luckily I mostly don't consume media, so this is rarely a real problem. But it is truly atrocious.
All that said, I'm generally a pretty happy camper. I look forward to continued improvements from the company over the years.
Could you reach out to support about the delete key? There was a small window of time where a burr on a batch of Input Cover lattices resulted in wearing down the keyboard membrane in that spot: https://support.frame.work
Thanks for the feedback on LED brightness and airplane OCP. That should be something we can improve in firmware.
Thanks, I'll do that! I figured I've had the machine for a while and it was unlikely to be covered by warranty, so I didn't consider reaching out to support. Instead I assumed I'd buy a new keyboard if it ever annoyed me too much.
At some point I actually considered poking around the firmware and seeing about fixing up the PD behavior. But it never quite rose in priority above my many other projects.
I absolutely love that the embedded controller firmware and much of the motherboard schematics are available. It makes it possible to do these little projects should I gather the gumption. That, plus easy and reasonably priced replacement parts availability and easy OS compatibility, are why I got the Framework.
A note to other folks. Don't bother asking customer service about this. They want you to record videos, as if that's a productive use of your time or required to support a product.
As soon as a CSR asks me to record a video, I write off the brand. Maybe Gen Z will tolerate that, but I'm too old for that nonsense.
The actual touch part of the FW touchpad, including tap to click, works just fine. I might be a weirdo for liking mechanical click for dragging (and I dislike the Macbook tactile fakery; it does not fool my finger).
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
I assume you are talking about legacy devices? I haven't purchased a keyboard in the past ten years with USB-A. Everything is USB-C for charging/data and Bluetooth.
Wow. A device in 2025 with a non-detachable USB-A cable? That sounds like a horrible design decision from both a repairability and future-proofing standpoint. My keyboard has a USB-C port on the side so you can plug in whatever cable you want, A or C, long, short, curled, braided. It even connects to my phone without dongles.
Bluetooth is too flaky for such critical inputs. Dongles will usually bring higer polling, less interference/2.4Ghz connectivity and lower load on the host system. Sadly most are USB-A plugs.
Bluetooth being cnstantly used for audio and so many other things as well might also be at play ?
Isn't that more due to the Bluetooth hardware used and implementation on the OS side? On macOS I never had flakyness with Bluetooth keyboards but on Windows my experience was significantly worse.
It might as well be, though Bluetooth is kinda hit or miss in general IMHO.
On Macos, first party peripherals have of course pretty good connectivity (is it even straight Bluetooth?) but it's not perfect either, and third party ones have a tougher time.
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...