As someone that's been a lifelong windows user, i'm finally switching to a mac this month.
I have a large rig that I run as a dual linux/windows machine, but the quality of windows laptops have been getting poorer and poorer and the OS is increasingly becoming incredibly intrusive while removing core features.
I want to be able to search without it taking 5 mintues. I used to be incredibly pro windows laptops due to aspects like repairability, but i've had a horrific experience with Lenovo just trying to get a keyboard repaired. In the end, if I need to choose between two systems, both of which are unrepairable, i'd much rather have the one that will last me longer.
I don't want to use my singular experience as a data-point, but I'm someone that has never even thought about buying a mac before this, but the poor quality of windows OS has forced me.
Apple hardware is as good as it’s ever been, but macOS has seen better days. The fun of everything being scriptable, consistency throughout the system, and even stability has been replaced with transitional pains of a new application framework, iOS-ification of much of the system, and inconsistent behavior that I have trouble reasoning about, despite using Macs as my frontend almost exclusively for the past 20 years.
That being said, I bought an old Dell last year for dev work (primarily Linux) and I can’t believe most of the world puts up with Windows. It seems like desktop computing is an afterthought.
>MacOS has never been worse. However it has never been this much better than Windows.
This would explain my experience, long time users confuse me when they tell me how bad it is, and maybe they're right. Coming from windows (well a while ago) it's still so nice to use.
Mac OS 7 on my first macbook 28 years ago was pretty bad. But in general I agree. Also there are one or two nice features in the recent OS's like my phone can actually stay tethered to the laptop sometimes when I close the lid and reopen it later.
What issues do you face on windows? I use both Mac and windows daily and I can't say I entirely prefer one over the other, and in recent years I've run into more noticeable bugs on macOS (although it does look better)
Even on literally top of the line machines (Razer Blade 18, Ultra 9 275HX, 64G DDR5, NVMe over PCIE4, 240Hz display) the thing feels sluggish.
UI "quirks" such as hiding the context menu, taskbar being forced into place, and the removal of the "never combine" taskbar buttons are just gobsmacking.
Worse, Windows Pioneered "drag and drop" yet now we can't even drag and drop files or shortcuts onto taskbar icons.. a workflow I actually used a lot and which is still supported in MacOS.
The forced integration is also a non-starter. MacOS doesn't require online accounts, Apps (onedrive, Teams, Cortana et al) or force "suggestions" down my throat in the UI even though I am constantly told that Apple are the ones who force their ecosystem on me.
I don't believe that it did. MacOS 1 had drag and drop. You could always drag a document onto a program to open the document with that program. Also, notably, to eject a floppy disk permanently you dragged the floppy disk to the trash can.
As soon as I heard them say "We're finally able to make the UI that Apple Silicon enables because of its performance" I knew wholeheartedly that it was going to be an enormous performance thief.
I'm not touching 26 with a 10-foot-pole.
I will even avoid buying new Macbook laptops, even though I have an M2 Air and M5 is around the corner.
This sort of forced integration is exactly why I consider macOS a non-starter. The ARM chips are neat, but I'm only interested in daily-driving computers I can own.
Yeah, it's specifically Windows 11 that has this issue.
I'm not certain as to why, if I had to speculate it would be the new scheduler prefers the efficiency cores and then thrashes the L1/L2 cache as soon as there's any actual work to do in the operating system (IE; you clicked something) by putting it on a performance core.
Windows 11 performance seems to be less terrible on devices that don't have big.LITTLE architectures.
Explorer in Windows 11 was overhauled, and its address bar behaviour is now absolute garbage. For example, type a directory path into it and press enter - takes 10 seconds to display the contents of the directory. Auto-complete on the address-bar as you type is unusable as it is so slow it's quicker just to type out the entire path manually.
Oh - and the popup UI for volume level and WiFi (and bluetooth etc) causes the system to freeze up sometimes, when you open it.
Logging in and the mouse freezes up for multiple seconds.
I'm sure these are not universal to all machines running Windows 11, but for me it's an all together shoddy user experience, and I'm sure there's a few other headaches that I forgot to mention.
Yeah, fully agree - and I should say this is specifically for my travel laptop. I have a desktop PC running Linux that I use and remote in from my normal laptop, but I've had a lot of issues with linux working smoothly on a laptop development.
i've seen the poor quality of MacOS recently, but it's relative compared to the despair I feel with windows.
> stability has been replaced with transitional pains of a new application framework, iOS-ification of much of the system, and inconsistent behavior
I see your point but I kinda disagree. As a daily macOS user (I have a MBP for work and one for personal use), my workflow just doesn't change much (if at all) between updates. If anything, I use less third party software since Sequoia (I replaced Rectangle with native window snapping, which is good enough). Tahoe didn't change anything for me. Working on a MacBook doesn't feel less powerful than before, and everything still "just works". I don't feel like the OS gets in my way at all.
X1 and everything from Apple: You’re literally doomed. Complete disassembly required. At least Lenovo documents well how to remove the base cover, battery, mainboard, display…
All of that pain for 1 mm less height and a sharp palmrest.
I surprised how much pain people with Windows can suffer and keep using it. With weird arguments like “I forced to use that application” and “Ans Linux doesn’t do FSR4.1 something”. You decided that you need that?
I’ve been using laptops for 25 years, and I have never, not once, had a keyboard need to be replaced.
I worked in an IT repair place for 5 years where we repaired laptops for customers. I can probably count the number of times we got people asking for keyboard swaps. For context of scale, we probably handled 30-70 computers a week, the vast majority of which were “user serviceable” repair jobs
I've been using laptops for 30 years, and I have had three keyboards need to be replaced for 1-3 keys having mechanical problems, plus an HP which got its keyboard replaced four times before being dustbinned.
I've also seen a large percentage of MacBook butterfly switch keyboards require a complete return to Apple, for about 2 years.
Totally fair point on the butterfly keyboards - I skipped that particular model by chance. If dell or anyone else had a design fault,
Regarding the others… respectfully what on earth are you doing to them that you’ve had to replace them that frequently? That’s more often that I replace actual consumeble parts that have real wear like USB cables and the likes.
I avoid eating and drinking in front of the computer (hygienic).
But a little sticky liquid is enough. A drop of something hard is also enough. I was able to rescue a ThinkPad by popping out a key and clean the mechanism with isopropyl. Another one was sadly killed by the power-button, which got defunct. But a 20 Euro keyboard safes it.
Don’t underestimate how much devices get killed by simple stuff like lose hinges, defective trackpads and so on. People are often careful, often not and usually helpless when it is damaged.
The water holes in the ThinkPads existed for…reasons. But it doesn’t help if people tilt them in sheer panic.
I've replaced 6 laptop keyboards on machines I've used ranging from consumer HP and Acer to a number of Thinkpads and most recently a Macbook Air. Some of them I replaced just because I wanted a different layout, others because they were worn out or broken. The Macbook Air keyboard was - of course - in the latter category as all these things seem to end up doing with the Q to O keys going A.W.O.L due to what I consider to be a design problem. Needless to say that the Apple machine was the hardest to fix due to the repair-hostile design. What is a quick 4-minuted job on a Thinkpad - a device known for having good keyboards - is a several hour slog on one of those Apple trinkets involving nail clippers to remove half of the rivets which did not come out of the frame because their heads ripped off. Keyboards are wear items and should be user-replaceable but that does not fit with the Fruit Factory Philosophy which instead insists on replacing the whole top shell. I go this Macbook Air for free because its keyboard had failed so maybe I should thank the FF for furthering the cause of the throwaway consumer society but there is no question here that these devices are designed to live just long enough and no longer and that they often fail on the wrong side of that lifetime.
Short: keyboards fail, quite often. They are wear items which should be user replaceable.
Probably people suffer in silence, afraid in advance about costs or potential hassle. People who use external keyboard may ignore issues altogether. On my old HP Zbook half of the keys at the left side register with issues. But I probably won't even bother with replacing them, until laptop will die completely.
weirdly, i've done the repair on one of the previous X1 generations. It was a pain to disassemble most of the machine (~2 hours?) but it was at least doable. i don't think you can do it on a Mac at all?
Respect. May biggest adventure was a screen upgrade for a X13 (Hint: HiDPI requires a bigger cable). Luckily the mainboard could remain in place.
The procedure for keyboard replacement should be similar between an X1 and MacBook. They are somehow “layered” to be cheap and flat. It was already a pain with the MacBooks from 2008.
If you know what you are doing, and have that spare part including the correct screwdriver and screws in the shelf next to your desk?
How often does your keyboard fail? I've never had that happen in all my computing life and the other parts are usually not that easy to change for any regular person on a laptop. Not sure if that's the scenario to optimize for.
I don't know the X13, but I have lots of experience with old Thinkpads. Keyboard replacement really used to be super easy:
Turn Laptop over, look for the screw holes with a keyboard icon next to it, remove those screws with a Phillips size 1 screwdriver, flip over, open lid, slide keyboard up and lift out, unclip flex cable, then do the reverse steps with the new keyboard.
After a while, Lenovo started using more clips and fewer screws and things started to go downhill from there.
For regular users with a consumer laptop, a damaged key or keyboard means:
Laptop defunct. Use an external keyboard if not affordable.
Used my X220 for ten years, handled it with care, but after ten years a new keyboard was a nice uplift. You can also switch languages but especially also the layout between ANSI- and ISO.
Buying an Apple device with ANSI in Europe? Pain. ThinkPads? Buy anything. 30 EUR and new keyboard.
Er, exactly! Most people replace the entire machine within that time, so they still don’t need a replaceable keyboard. You’re now arguing with yourself.
I don't use an X13. The Lenovo Laptop I have requires a complete disassembly, with the warranty being incredibly limited. I would much rather have the capability of improved performance and hardware.
I might consider switching to an X13, but Lenovo support software is incredibly intrusive, and I've learned to despise windows.
However, I also use a large amount of applications like Touch Designer, which is not available on Linux. I'd much rather own a mac for travel purposes.
I can only recommend to use Linux by wanting Linux. This way you can replace stuff which is holding you back.
Just leaving Windows because Microsoft sucks is often failing, you are still within the vendor lock-in of the applications. The authors only port if they
I made a clear cut and lost my favorite game. Luckily Valve decided some years later to port it natively to Linux.
Which leads to two options:
Drop proprietary applications. And spending money on Linux support.
Design applications seem one of the most troublesome areas?
Everything I've ever needed can be found on eBay, Aliexpress, iFixit and elsewhere. That is everything from drive caddies for old expired Thinkpads, CCFL tubes for Acer and HP consumer models, inverters for the same, CPUs, random lids for machines missing those, etc. Also, keyboards for those terrible Apple models which require the equivalent of open heart surgery to replace them. You might need to get one of those bags with 120 tiny screws with it if those are not included, make sure to check.
If you want to survive on macOS after using Windows your whole life, I strongly suggest you install AltTab[1]. The default cmd+tab behavior on macOS is completely outdated and makes no sense (you can't cmd+tab between open windows of the same applications).
Agreed. I'm a Mac user first but I have spent a lot of time in Windows in past years.
Now that I have been used to both, I think much of the macOS multi-tasking behavior makes very little sense and is a major pain in the ass.
Switching apps instead of windows is extremely dumb and rather useless when there are multiple windows of the same app.
Similarly, I have grown to hate the app centric design, you need to micromanage open apps when all their windows have been closed. Now that I'm used to the confortable way software gets closed when the last document is closed on Windows, I routinely forget to quit apps on macOS and end up with a gazillion stuff open routinely.
I'm sure Apple likes it this way because you are guaranteed to use more RAM (BTW my experience is that for the same exact hardware, macOS use more ressources) but it's mostly just extremely dumb and painful.
Nowadays when I hear Apple fans rave about the UI/UX of Apple stuff, I laugh my ass off. Most of it is deeply unintuitive and the approach is very often just plain inferior to what Windows ended up with.
I actually think it's kind of the point. Macs appeal to "alternative" people who are very contrarian and want to pretend they are special; it's kind of a feature that the thing works completely differently to the established standard (and what most people would expect), you have to be "in on it" and if you pretend it make sense, you get virtual points for being so different and so much smarter than the common folk (who obviously is an idiot with his common Windows).
I think that if Apple would make using 3rd party OSs on their good hardware, macOS would disappear pretty fast. This is why they don't make a lot of effort with Apple Silicon.
Cmd+` doesn't work on an azerty layout for some reason. And even if it did, it doesn't make sense. Why would I want to first cmd+tab to the correct application and then cmd+` to the correct window if I can just do it with cmd+tab?
I get why it was done this way historically, but they should really make a general setting to fix this behavior, because it really feels like a bug nowadays.
Contrary to what others say, I don't think MacOS is that bad. In general, it's perfectly stable. There has been an increase in situational paper cuts -- I haven't experienced any I recall, but one cannot discount that others encounter weird problems. In the end it's significantly more stable than Windows and completely free of crapware.
Personally, the new look is annoying at worst, but it doesn't affect my day to day at all.
The biggest Apple problem is the same as its been for a decade: languishing Apple app development.
I am windows user who uses MacOS sometimes and I am still bewildered why I can't change Enter (rename) to behave, like an Enter (open) and Del to delete a file.
Can you change the "Enter" behavior on Windows to rename the file?
Can you change the Home/End behavior on Windows to match the macOS behavior?
(Legit don't know the answer to these, but I suspect not...)
If you can't do this on Windows, why would you expect to be able to do it the reverse direction on Mac? Just because it's how Windows works, and you expect the entire rest of the world to cater to the way you expect things to be when you have to go there?
I only use Windows occasionally, but when I do, I expect it to act like Windows.
You have posted a link to a question asking about it that does not actually appear to have a valid answer provided. Someone mentions using F2 (which does not change the Enter behavior), and someone talks about using some third-party utility to globally remap Enter, which is definitely not a good way to do that (as they even point out).
Again, I'm willing to believe that it may be possible—but you have not provided any evidence thereof.
You can remap the Enter key globally, which is not getting Windows to usefully change the behavior of opening a selected file by hitting the Enter key to instead rename the file. And while I've never tried it myself, I think it highly likely that you can remap "Enter" to "Cmd-O" on macOS, too, either natively or with some third-party utility.
If you want to consider that "proof" that Windows can do what you describe, then I can't stop you, but even then it seems like a pretty thin endorsement for Windows over macOS.
Yeah Apple hardware is good, but oh boy, there are many design choices in MacOS that are real head-scratchers
- The over-reliance on weird key combinations and touchpad gestures, that you have no way of guessing until you look it up, and if it is for something you only perform once in a while, you need to look it up every time you need to do it.
- The refusal to adopt the best parts of Windows's file explorer in the Finder app
- Bad window size/position management that is seemingly never fixed
The window-management of macOS is pain. As the application menus. Outside of the application windows! Core applications like Finder are so bad, that even Apple-Fans admit it (not lack of features, it is the crippled UI). And they keep using this desktop-metaphor.
The UX of all Windows applications is crap. Everyone is using an own toolkit and neglects design guidelines. But the worst thing is, setup and maintenance are the biggest pain ever.
If you can, Linux. If you must, macOS. If you prefer agony, Windows.
PS: Simple hint, never do something like Microsoft. Chances are high, that it is good.
I still run Linux, just on my main PC where I have far more control over hardware.
Honestly, I've learned that there's a mental trade-off, and while i've got my linux system set up perfectly on my home PC, for a laptop I would much rather have something that just works.
I ran my old laptop with multiple different distros, from Ubuntu to Manjaro to Fedora. While I love the customizability of linux, there would always be some sitaution where I need to have something ready at the last minute but the driver isn't compatible or I haven't set up a specific acceleration etc.
It's a balance, I'm happy with that development process on my home PC, but if i'm travelling on a train I want something that I can rely on working. Windows used to be that to a certain extent, and for me it's no longer capable of doing so.
Nobody makes it and stays a Mac user today unless you're a real masochist.
Funny, for me it is win/linux that is painful because of decent accessibility software. Ever since switching from linux to mac in 2003, mac has great accessibility tools for vision impairment out of box experience and has never let me down for the last 22 years. With windows the tooling is unusable. With linux i've tried on and off over the years and the tools keep changing or are inconsistent and/or broken.
If the alternative is a Linux-distro, likely UX won't be much better/more-consistent when applications use different UI kits/styles etc.
Even Though Apple is doing a shitty job with their walled garden, a garden is still more organized than a jungle of different distro's/applications/frameworks/etc.
Adding an alternate data point, I was a heavy Linux desktop user, and had an adjustment period when my workplace gave me a Mac 10 years ago. Yes there are random differences. However, now I wouldn't look back for my personal compute needs.
I have been actively using all of them - Linux, Windows and macOS for the past 15-20 years and currently Linux has the best desktop environments possible. macOS is still stuck in 2010 and it is quite painful to work with my Macbook even with all the tweaks and modifications. Sure, you can live with it, but there is always something annoying about it and you can't do anything about it.
Apple has the best laptops but the worst desktop environment that does all the window management, etc.
I don't care about the UX of the specific applications, most of them work on Mac/Windows/Linux anyway. What I care about is the window manager and macOS has a terrible window manager. That is why I am using Aerospace on macOS, and it makes things better, but it's still far from what Linux has to offer.
I had a brief hiatus of not using macs for work and gave linux a spin on a framework laptop. Tried sway / wayland since everyone at work was either using sway or i3. It was alright at first and i got in the groove of things but became unusable with apps with odd ui toolkits like ghidra/java awt, etc. Also too much time is wasted in customisation and organising or curating your windows.
Switched back to mac after about a year, and i can't say i miss tiling window management one bit. I've learned that i am quite content with the chaotic style of window management that mac offers, and find it much easier to work with since you're not wasting brain cycles perfecting your layout every time a new window is opened. I do use macos out of box tiling / snapping on the rare occasion i need side by side layout but that's really it.
The year I dumped all Apple hardware was when I discovered that the Corporatron was deprecating my perfectly capable Mac hardware -- via an XML property in a hidden plist -- simply because Corporatron decreed that my hardware was insufficient to "upgrade to the latest OS".
But I modified that plist and my Mac ran the latest OS just fine.
Microsoft has done the same thing with the transition from MW10 to MW11. Corporatron is doing something wrong and bad for the environment... to satisfy the needs of Corporatron.
I have long preferred the freedom of GNU/Linux. But Corporatron is making a zealot of me. ^_^
This year Apple decided to drop support for FireWire hardware (which I still use). For some things like optical drives it’s still the best option, especially with a lot of hardware attached. It’s not my trigger to defect, but it’s getting closer.
The last time I used FireWire I had acne and a skateboard was my main source of transportation. I am now middle aged. Surprised to see anybody saying FireWire support is the hill they will die on.
I don't really get how FireWire is best for optical drives. I have been using USB CD/DVD/BluRay drives for over a decade now without an issue.
I have a lot of devices and have an app that supports a lot of device types. FireWire (like Thunderbolt) means daisy chaining those devices with a single port on the host. With USB I need hubs which need external power and may or may not work at full speed with different cables and all devices need cables long enough to go back to the host or hub.
I have a large rig that I run as a dual linux/windows machine, but the quality of windows laptops have been getting poorer and poorer and the OS is increasingly becoming incredibly intrusive while removing core features.
I want to be able to search without it taking 5 mintues. I used to be incredibly pro windows laptops due to aspects like repairability, but i've had a horrific experience with Lenovo just trying to get a keyboard repaired. In the end, if I need to choose between two systems, both of which are unrepairable, i'd much rather have the one that will last me longer.
I don't want to use my singular experience as a data-point, but I'm someone that has never even thought about buying a mac before this, but the poor quality of windows OS has forced me.