What's everyone's thoughts on the GHF? They're the only way that food officially enters Gaza. IDF is not supposed to be immediately present at the distribution sites, and yet are shooting civilians. As are contractors hired by GHF. In fact there are cases of nationals joining IDF for the explicit purpose of shooting civilians, seemingly. There are movements to disband the GHF, but how else would Gazans eat?
Lets be entirely clear that the food crisis in Gaza is manufactured. There is enough food and medicines available and there are several organizations capable of dealing with the logistics of handling out the food, main one among them of course being UNWRA.
The only reason there is starvation in Gaza is because IDF is preventing aid from entering the territory and are refusing to let real humanitarian organizations work safely there.
So the answer to the question is: Israel must let food trucks into Gaza and let serious humanitarian organizations with decades of experience handle the logistics of handing out the food.
About 150-200 trucks needs to enter Gaza per day, that's a lot of trucks to inspect thoroughly, but not nearly infeasible.
"The only reason there is starvation in Gaza is because IDF is preventing aid from entering the territory and are refusing to let real humanitarian organizations work safely there."
This is not accurate to say the least.
Trucks do get in but Hamas and armed groups control the supplies and prevent a fair distribution
Every humanitarian organisation on the ground have said that these claims are false. What they HAVE claimed is that the gangs that are raiding aid are doing so with the support of the IDF:
This was the first result of many. I have heard these claims from many many sources for at least 6 months, despite having actively avoiding reading about Gaza.
There was a report released recently but you're not quite correct. The report said that the allegiance of the raideres could not be verified in majority of the cases. In the cases where they marked IDF as the cause it was due to the IDF picking the route or blocking their intended route. The IDF was not raiding the trucks or supporting the raiders.
Netanyahu claimed himself that Israel were providing weapons to the Popular Forces/ATF. Seemingly for the same reason they bolstered Hamas as the enemy of Fatah: the enemy of their enemy is their friend. That PF has IS connections doesnt seem to bother Netanyahu.
They are in control of many of the aid corridors especially around Gaza. Aid is only allowed through those corridors, and the PF (and other gangs) are raiding the aid trucks. Sometimes within reach of the IDF which stays passive.
Let enough aid come in, and there will be no money to be made from reselling it. If Hamas is stealing all the aid now as they claim, they will have more han enough for their forces already.
If your main source is aid organisations then be aware UNRWA employ members of Hamas and the staff at many others call for the death of Jews on their personal social media.
UNRWA being infiltrated would at least be theoretically plausible (even though Israel is lacking evidence even for that, apart from a small number of workers).
But this argument falls flat when essentially EVERY aid and human rights organization that operates in the strip is saying the same thing. (With the notable exception of one: The GHF)
Claiming that the ENTIRE global human rights system is engaged in a coordinated misinformation campaign against Israel is conspiracy theory levels of delusional.
Are you serious right now? Have you lost all sense of relativity here?
Nobody cares about what these employees say on their free time. If you collated the things IDF members say on social media about Arabs, it would not look any prettier. It's a complete non-sequitur and emphasizes how insecure you are over the actual righteousness of these actions.
The BBC is supposedly a neutral objective news source. Even if what’s you say about the IDF is correct (and knowing many Israelis it isn’t), nobody is asserting the IDF is a neutral objective news source.
Yeah, apart from everything else, the Israeli argument was not even logical: Hamas is stealing supplies to sell at inflated prices - so we have to restrict supply and ensure the prices inflate even more?
If you check a map of Gaza and the GHF distribution locations, you will see that there are only 3 distribution points in entire Gaza. So in an area that hosts 2 million people.
What's more, none of those 3 points are in the 2 area's that are appointed by Israel as safe havens. So they are not where most Gazans live. Which means they have to travel long distances to get food, through an area where they are considered free game by the IDF.
> how else would Gazans eat?
Have more distribution points, distributing more food, and inside the area's where Gazans live
If the UN sent in peacekeepers the IDF would use them for target practice. It would be a total bloodbath.
Leaving aside the horror of the thought, the only way to stop Israel's assault on Gaza with a military force is to summon one more powerful than the IDF. There are only a few nations in the world that have a military that could take on the IDF - the US, Russia, China, I'm not sure who else. None of those countries are even remotely likely to invade Israel to stop the IDF from massacring the Palestinians. Why would they? What would be in it for them?
Even in WWII, Germany was not invaded to save the Jews from the Holocaust. That was a fortunate and welcome side-effect. But if the Nazis hadn't also invaded all their neighbours, and the Soviet Union, they could have well gone on and exterminated all the Jews in Europe unimpeded.
It seems unlikely that the IDF will do anything to an international peace force operating in Gaza (not Israel) under a combined lead of France and the UK.
Anyway, it would exactly only take one country - the US - to stop shipping weapons (to credibly threaten to stop) to bring this to an end so fast that you can‘t even finish breakfast.
> It seems unlikely that the IDF will do anything to an international peace force operating in Gaza (not Israel) under a combined lead of France and the UK.
Almost certainly true but it would be political suicide for either country to actually deploy troops to the area. Troops would be attacked either by Hamas or one of the other dozen terrorist organisations present in the area, some of which are allegedly backed by Israel. Any goodwill obtained internationally would evaporate as soon as the troops are forced to defend themselves and any goodwill obtained domestically would evaporate as soon as any troops died or were injured.
The reason why they do that is because they know they have complete impunity. If Israeli attacks on the UN were followed by sanctions by major economies, the Israelis would think twice next time.
IIRC one of the third party partition plans involves a coalition of local governments staffing a neutral zone between Palestine and Israel. The issue for that plan is one of support (Israel doesnt like it, natch) and funding.
UNRWA, WFP, etc. You know, the ones with decades of experience in Gaza and other war zones with sites, warehouses, and all the other infrastructure necessary to support a population under siege.
The one that has a unique definiton of 'refugee' that doesn't correspond with UNs the normal definition of the term? Where many of the staff work for Hamas? Where their schools teach children to be martyrs? The one many countries have halted funding for because of this?
If you want the UN, fine, UNHCR, the normal UN refugee agency.
What percentage of their staff works for Hamas? What's the proof they work for Hamas?
Israel has provided 0 proof, only allegations, and even then it's only a handful of people in an organization of tens of thousands. That's literally better than the ratio of rapist to citizen in Israel.
Numbers for proof: Israel claims 12 out of 30k (13k in Gaza), but the UN says only 9 "may have been involved". That's 0.1% of Palestinians in Gaza. There are 1.3k Israeli rapists in prison (not including the ones that fled the US to avoid prison) and 80% of rape allegations are closed without investigation. That's 0.1% of Israelis.
What do you mean by no proof? UNRWA has admitted that many of their staff members participated in Hamas attacks, they just dispute the amount. I’m sure you probably can guess it’s probably a large amount as the school systemically teach children to be martyrs - ie UNRWA openly supports terrorism - and you can easily confirm that for yourself.
I mean the provided no proof to anyone, UNRWA did their own investigation and said "maybe". That's not conclusive, that's "we can't prove otherwise and we want to still be let in". Little did they know Israel was going to attack them all anyway.
It's tough to investigate during an invasion and subsequent siege and genocide, no? Let in some western journalists and you'll get a lot of those facts that are currently hard to come by.
The Palestinian refugee problem is fairly unique in the modern world to begin with.
Israel is arguably the last colonial state to be founded, at a time when colonialism was on the way out. The Israelis expelled a massive number of people into the surrounding countries, and have since refused to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes, which are inside what is now Israel. The Palestinians naturally want to return home, and the neighboring countries do not want to provide for millions of refugees created by Israel, so the Palestinians are in permanent limbo.
The obvious solution would be for Israel to allow the Palestinians to return home, and to pay for their resettlement. But Israel refuses to do that, because the entire idea behind Israel is that the country must have a decisive Jewish majority.
As for your various accusations against UNRWA, they're just a rehash of the standard Israeli propaganda against the agency. The actual reason why Israel dislikes UNRWA is because the existence of Palestinian refugees is a problem for Israel.
> The Israelis expelled a massive number of people into the surrounding countries, and have since refused to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes, which are inside what is now Israel.
A huge part of the Exodus was the Arab league telling Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 while they destroyed the new Jewish state, because they didn’t just want Jordan and the proposed second Arab state from British Palestine they wanted everything from the river to the sea, which probably would’ve destroyed all the jewish people (witness all the violence pre-1948 from Arabs to Jews). Meanwhile, contrary to arab nationalist claims, ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab.
The other thing you’ve omitted is the greater number of Jews that were expelled from Arab states. you haven’t asked for them to be able to return either, but it’s probably not a good idea as they would be killed, as is typical for anybody who doesn’t follow or has left Islam in Arabic countries. Witness the current genocide against the druze people in Syria.
saying my points are a rehash of standard propaganda is silly: anyone can verify that we know UNRWA staff are members of hamas, that UNRWA facilities are routinely used by Hamas, that UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs and that UNRWA has a different definition of refugee than UNHCR. The very obvious solution is UNRWA should be disbanded.
> A huge part of the Exodus was the Arab league telling Arabs to leave their homes in 1948
That's a myth. It simply isn't true. Israeli historians have gone through the reasons why Palestinians left every town, and almost all of them were either expelled at gunpoint or fled in the face of advancing Zionist / Israeli forces. Only the wealthiest Palestinian families had the means to leave in advance, as they saw the war coming.
> ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab.
This is such an absurd claim to anyone who is even remotely familiar with Ben Gurion's life and politics. Ben Gurion was one of the most important supporters of the idea of expelling Palestinians.
> The other thing you’ve omitted is the greater number of Jews that were expelled from Arab states.
They were expelled in the decades afterwards, as a consequence of the bad blood Israel created throughout the Arab world with the expulsion of the Palestinians. In any case, two wrongs do not make a right, and the treatment of Jews in the Arab world after Israel's establishment does not justify Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1947-48.
> you haven’t asked for them to be able to return either
If they want to, they should be able to. But they don't want to, so this is a moot point.
> they would be killed, as is typical for anybody who doesn’t follow or has left Islam in Arabic countries
This is a historically ignorant claim. Muslim countries were historically more religiously tolerant than Christian countries. That changed for the Jews in the Arab world for two reasons: the foundation of Israel and imported antisemitic ideas from Europe.
Palestine is actually a major counterexample to your claim about Muslim countries. There are many Christian Palestinians, and they have been very prominent in the Palestinian national movement (Edward Said was Christian, for example). If you've followed the news, you'll know that Israel has repeatedly bombed Christian churches in Gaza, which is why the Israeli government got into a row with the Pope recently.
> UNRWA staff are members of hamas
This is like saying that McDonald's staff are murderers. A tiny number of UNWRA staff (you can literally count them on two hands) were alleged to be Hamas members, out of 30k employees.
> UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs
The idea that Palestinians have to be taught by the UN to hate Israel is absurd. They hate Israel for the same reason Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto hated Germany. The UN does a remarkable job of instituting neutral education in that environment, and is constantly bending over backwards to appease Israel, including allowing Israel to review their educational materials and list of employees.
> The very obvious solution is UNRWA should be disbanded.
It's the obvious solution if you want to starve and immiserate the Palestinians.
> > A huge part of the Exodus was the Arab league telling Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 while they destroyed the new Jewish state, because they didn’t just want Jordan and the proposed second Arab state from British Palestine they wanted everything from the river to the sea, which probably would’ve destroyed all the jewish people (witness all the violence pre-1948 from Arabs to Jews).
> That's a myth. It simply isn't true.
What part? That the Arab league wanted full control of multiethnic Palestine? That they tried to stop Israel being created? That they intended to make Israel a warzone?
> > ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab.
> This is such an absurd claim
It's history. "Ben-Gurion’s 1948 Speech to arab population"
> In any case, two wrongs do not make a right
So do you support a right of return for Jews to Arab states or not? How will you guarantee their safety?
> Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1947-48
There were no Palestinians in 1947 which you should be aware of before you discuss this topic. And Arabs in 1948 were not ethnically cleansed by anyone. Look at the population statistics.
> Muslim countries were historically more religiously tolerant than Christian countries. That changed for the Jews in the Arab world for two reasons: the foundation of Israel and imported antisemitic ideas from Europe.
lol. Arab violence against Jews was commonplace, much like it's still commonplace. You can look up cases of widespread violence from before Israel became independent very easily. Also the grand mufti aligning himself with Hitler. Hence partitioning.
> If you've followed the news, you'll know that Israel has repeatedly bombed Christian churches in Gaza.
They hit the facade of a church by accident, hit the facade, owned the error.
> A tiny number of UNWRA staff (you can literally count them on two hands) were alleged to be Hamas members
And admitted by UNRWA.
> UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs
The idea that Palestinians have to be taught by the UN to hate Israel is absurd.
> They hate Israel for the same reason Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto hated Germany.
Because they're brainwashed by Islamic extremism?
> The UN does a remarkable job of instituting neutral education in that environment
So you think wanting to be martyrs and kill jews is neutral?
> Including allowing Israel to review their educational materials and list of employees.
I suspect what you and I have seen wasn't reviwed by Israel and I bet you you know this.
> (disbanding UNRWA) is the obvious solution if you want to starve and immiserate the Palestinians.
They're already miserable. Hamas is stockpiling their food and charging them for it. UNRWA and Hamas need to go.
Do you support reintegrating Pakistan and India? Do you think Pakistan and India are legitimite states? Why or why not?
That the Palestinians left on their own accord because the Arab League or whoever on their side told them to.
> lol. Arab violence against Jews was commonplace
No, it wasn't. It was much rarer than in Europe.
> They hit the facade of a church by accident, hit the facade, owned the error.
Ah yes, they've bombed every church "by accident" now.
> And admitted by UNRWA.
Actually, UNWRA was not able to confirm the Israeli government accusations, because the Israeli government refused to provide evidence. But you're tacitly admitting here that only a few UNWRA employees were ever accused of being involved with Hamas.
> Because they're brainwashed by Islamic extremism?
Because they live under military occupation. The Palestinian national movement was secular for decades, is multireligious, and not motivated by Islamism in any fundamental sense.
> So you think wanting to be martyrs and kill jews is neutral?
This has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Israel. Stop pretending this is 1940 Germany.
> This has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Israel.
I’ve mentioned a few times but reiterating you can easily look up massacres of Jews by Arabs prior to 1948. Arabs colonised the Middle East, their religious includes fighting Jews at the end of time, and they commonly hate anyone else existing in the area. Look at what happened to the Christians and Druze.
You can look up massacres of Arabs by Jews too. This has kind of been mostly forgotten in recent decades, but the Zionist movement carried out many terrorist attacks in the 1930s and '40s.
> Look at what happened to the Christians and Druze.
You know that Christians are a significant part of the Palestinian population, right? They suffered the same fate as Muslim Palestinians at the hands of Israel - mass expulsion, theft of their homes and property, and military occupation.
You’re comparing isolated cases of violence (mainly against the British who were an occupying power stopping Israel from accepting Jews) with Islam attacking entire Christian countries, including Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan.
* These weren't "isolated cases of violence." There were Zionist terrorist groups behind these campaigns of terrorism. Leading figures in the two most important Zionist terrorist groups were later elected Prime Minster of Israel.
* Zionist groups carried out many terrorist attacks on Arab civilians, not just on British forces.
* "Islam attacking entire Christian countries, ...": Are you talking about the 7th Century again? Why are we discussing the Eastern Roman Empire? I thought we were talking about the modern world.
UNRWAs definition is different from UNHCR because it allows them to claim buildings in Gaza are ‘refugee camps’ and to claim refugee status for people who are safely resettled.
Refugee camps in Palestine are distinct from normal city blocks. They are extremely crowded areas that were never meant to be permanent. If Israel had allowed the civilian population that it expelled at its founding to return home, then the camps would not have become permanent. But Israel refuses, because the refugees are Arab, and Israel is an ethno-religiously defined country.
Refugee camps are permanent buildings and the only distinction is that they are called refugee camp for a made up definition of the term of refugee that is completely distinct from UNHCR, that’s how you know that these people are not refugees.
if you don’t know that these people are not refugees do more research on UNRWA and UNHCR and then stop telling people that they are refugees when they are not refugees.
gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants.
you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country - there are Arab members of Parliament talking to other members of Parliament in Arabic in Parliament. Meanwhile, Arabs in most other states can’t even pick their own leaders, be gay, or leave islam safely.
Is Israel, despite being more diverse than any other country in the middle east, the only ethno religious state you dislike or do you really hate the 22 arab states too (and presumably the 23rd arab state you are proposing)? Why is that?
> Refugee camps are permanent buildings and the only distinction is that they are called refugee camp
You can identify them from satellite images. They're extremely dense, squalid knots inside Palestinian cities that were never meant to be permanent.
> made up definition of the term of refugee
The Palestinians are refugees by any reasonable definition. They were kicked out of their homes by Israel, forced to flee, and have been stateless ever since.
> gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants.
Most buildings in Gaza have been leveled. You're like a person in 1943 who believes Nazi propaganda about how the Warsaw Ghetto is actually great.
> you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country
You're ignoring the millions of Arabs (called "Palestinians") who live under Israeli rule with no rights whatsoever. They can even be killed by Israeli settlers or soldiers with no consequences.
> Why is that?
You're so close to calling me an antisemite. Why not just say what you mean. And then I'll laugh in your face and inform you about my own background.
This may be difficult to fathom, but most people are disgusted by seeing Israel's mass murder of Palestinians. Calling people antisemites isn't going to work anymore.
> The Palestinians are refugees by any reasonable definition.
They are not by UNHCR's definition.
> They were kicked out of their homes by Israel
As discussed, Ben Gurion encouraged Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new state, which is a matter of history and evidenced by Israel's large Arab population. Arab leaders told their people to leave the warzone, which is also documented history. "no u" is not an adequate response.
> > You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants.
> Most buildings in Gaza have been leveled.
lol I just showed you what Arabs are posting from Gaza about their lives and you're still pretending I haven't done that.
> You're like a person in 1943 who believes Nazi propaganda
You're a deeply silly person that belives easily disproven conspiracy theories about Jewish people.
> You're ignoring the millions of Arabs (called "Palestinians") who live under Israeli rule with no rights whatsoever.
No I am not. Those arabs aren't in Israel. Those live outside Israel, with a government that spends most of it's money on trying to destroy Israel. They should get better leaders.
> You're so close to calling me an antisemite.
You are either racist or simply believe racist propaganda, which is fairly commom as a member of the far left. Your background doesn't change anything, identity politics are for the intellectually weak.
> This may be difficult to fathom, but most people are disgusted by seeing Israel's mass murder of Palestinians.
Of course they would be, but you made up those images.
You're not reading what I'm writing. They're visible as extremely dense areas, similar to the notorious "walled city" that used to exist inside Kowloon.
> They are not by UNHCR's definition.
They are actually refugees by the UNHCR's definition. Refugee status also applies to families of people who are expelled. The key element is whether their situation has changed so that they are no longer in exile, displaced, stateless, etc. The Palestinians are still all of those things.
> As discussed, Ben Gurion encouraged Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new state, which is a matter of history and evidenced by Israel's large Arab population. Arab leaders told their people to leave the warzone, which is also documented history. "no u" is not an adequate response.
This is just completely delusional. Of all the people you could have chosen to make this argument about, Ben Gurion is the absolute last person you should choose. He is on the record many times as having supported "transfer," which was the term used back then for what we would now call "ethnic cleansing." There are many quotes from him on the subject. Here is one from 1937, as translated by Benny Morris:
"We do not want to dispossess, [but piecemeal] transfer of population [through Jewish purchase and the removal of Arab tenant farmers] occurred previously, in the [Jezreel] Valley, in the Sharon and in other places ... Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out ... Transfer is what will make possible a comprehensive [Jewish] settlement programme. Thankfully, the Arab people have vast empty areas [in Transjordan and Iraq]. Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale."
And of course, in 1947-48, he actually oversaw the mass expulsion of 80% of the Arab population of the territory that became Israel. Even after the war, Ben Gurion oversaw the passage of the "present absentee" laws that were used to continue expelling Arab civilians from Israel. The reason why there's an Arab minority in Israel today is because the expulsion was not complete. Without the mass expulsions of 1947-48, Israel would never have had anything remotely approaching a Jewish majority in the first place.
> lol I just showed you what Arabs are posting from Gaza about their lives and you're still pretending I haven't done that.
First, anyone who has seen any of the images coming out of Gaza knows that your whole "they're enjoying cafes" line is cynical and absurd. Over a thousand Palestinians have been killed at the food distribution sites, and yet hundreds of thousands of Palestinians continue to regularly risk their lives just to get small boxes of food. Second, the way you regularly refer to them as them "Arabs" instead of "Palestinians" is a dead giveaway that you're a racist.
> You're a deeply silly person that belives easily disproven conspiracy theories about Jewish people.
I'm Jewish, so you'll have to find a different line of attack.
> No I am not. Those arabs aren't in Israel. Those live outside Israel
They live under Israeli rule, surrounded by Israeli settlements and military checkpoints. They functionally live inside Israel. If you go there, the Israeli soldiers will even tell you that you are in Israel. That's how they see it.
> You are either racist or simply believe racist propaganda, which is fairly commom as a member of the far left. Your background doesn't change anything, identity politics are for the intellectually weak.
It's funny how you still want to continue the "you're an antisemite" line of attack, even knowing that you're talking to a Jewish person. You really don't have any better arguments.
> Of course they would be, but you made up those images.
the GHF is a IDF front pure and simple. They get to control food going in. They get to blame "surges" at food lines for why the IDF had to open fire with tanks. Its all a farce.
The reports that i've seen for most of those instances are reporting shootings of people on the way to a GHF site and one shooting at the site at night.
Israel clearly isn’t above letting Gazans starve, so it seems like a viable option, even if not ideal. Perhaps air drops should be the way forward to supplement whatever on ground aid is actually delivered. I think the outside world needs to stop posturing on what Israel should do and just get aid there however possible.
If we assume good faith on the part of the Israelis, and believe that the GHF is genuinely an attempt to feed the civilian population of Gaza without food and money making its way to Hamas, it's clearly totally inadequate. There are too few sites operating for too little time; it's a recipe for chaos and panic. There's been countless reports of violence on way to the sites; the IDF has made several excuses for this, but even if we assume good faith on the part of the Israelis here too, the excuses aren't good enough: it needs to be taking proactive steps to fix the problem instead of denying, deflecting, and passing the blame.
It's a shame - if the GHF were being run well, it'd be a great first step in trying to win hearts and minds. But it's not.
The other extreme is that it's an elaborate ruse to, frankly, put Gazans in positions where the IDF will be able to claim justification for killing them. This seems paranoid, but no more implausible than the alternatives. The sites open at the crack of dawn, Gazans rush to get ahead of the crowds because there aren't enough sites, so they travel through the dark in areas controlled by IDF where movement is forbidden before daybreak; the IDF shrugs and says, "well, there were unknown targets travelling through off-limit areas in the dark, we had to neutralize the potential threat". And at the sites themselves chaos inevitably ensues - because, again, there aren't enough sites - and violence is deployed to keep the crowds under control.
But my suspicion regarding the GHF is that it's mostly just a half-assed attempt from Israel to try to get the international community off their back while they continue their siege effort to starve out the Gazans, and/or possibly a grift to enrich various friends of Bibi or Trump.
