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I guess by now, even its use on Google Nest Hub isn't even certain.

I had high hopes for the project, but it looks like a keeping engineers busy kind of thing, a pure cost center, without any revenue to keep it going besides Google Nest Hub being shipped with it.

It's a wonder how it wasn't axed already.



I believe Fuschia and usage of Dart for projects like Flutter grew out this back-and-forth legal rigamarole between Google and Oracle over Java.

Plus, I believe at the time there was some core Chrome developers Google wanted to retain and keep busy with developing Flutter.

These are all cool projects, and there are hardly any companies developing actual operating systems nowadays. It would be sad to see it go, but on the otherhand, I haven't seen folks outside of Google use this OS despite its strengths, and perhaps that's the real problem


The thing Oracle was suing over is the thing you have to have in order to run any Java code at all. And most of Android's API surface is built in Java - including the APIs Oracle was suing over. Those can't be removed, and if you try, you're going to split the ecosystem ala Python 3.x. Android can't work without Java.

This, BTW, is why the entire FOSS world was shitting itself over the Oracle lawsuit. If they were to win, it'd trigger a cascade of other companies claiming interface copyright over every competing OS and library that has a similar interface but is not entirely a compatible reimplementation[0]. The problem is that programmers thought interfaces weren't copyrightable and thus have been doing the whole "embrace and extend" dance for decades. Think less WINE and more GNU: something that's very explicitly Not UNIX, is sorta-kinda compatible enough with it, but also has a lot of its own weird extensions. That's what Oracle thought shouldn't be allowed.

Fuschia replaces things lower level than the Java APIs - things Oracle doesn't own. That's the Linux kernel and a good chunk of Android userland[1]. If, say, SCO were to somehow come back from the dead with some new bullshit legal claim to the Linux kernel, then yeah, Fuschia could get Google out of that kind of a jam. But that isn't the case right now.

[0] Existing Ninth Circuit[2] precedent regarding, of all things, PS1 emulation, precludes suing over compatible reimplementations of existing interfaces. The problem with Android was that it wasn't compatible; they'd taken some but not all of the Java APIs, which was against Sun policy. Sun didn't want partial implementations or extensions in the wild. In fact, Sun had already successfully sued and won against Microsoft for shipping MSJVM with COM bindings.

[1] Which, funnily enough, contains no GNU code so you can't call it GNU/Android.

[2] Yes, the lawsuit was in the Federal Circuit, not the Ninth Circuit.


Basically Google has the resources to write their own OS and their own alternative to Java, so they did so as an escape hatch.

And Fuschia+Dart+Flutter runs perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with them. Should Google keep pouring money into them? YES. Absolutely yes. But do they need 500+ people on each project? Probably not. Remember Google has on the order of 100,000 software engineers.


> I believe Fuschia and usage of Dart for projects like Flutter grew out this back-and-forth legal rigamarole between Google and Oracle over Java.

I'm guessing nowadays Kotlin plays this role? Its multi-platform nature means that the Android world can eventually be detached from the JVM backend, if I understand correctly.


No, reimplementation of the Java standard library was the core issue in that lawsuit, and Kotlin akso uses the Java standard library.


Indeed, people keep telling Kotlin was a way out of the lawsuit, while forgetting Kotlin, Gradle, Android Studio, and whole whole Android SDK run on Java / JVM.

Even with ART, Kotlin withouth the richness of the Java ecosystem at Maven Central is worthless, hence why after the whole Kotlin push, now ART is modular and updated to more recent versions, currently Java 17 LTS. Via Play Store updates from Android 12 onwards.

Kotlin was pushed by a couple of folks with managment powers, given the team marriage with JetBrains, and a way to push common interests with Android tooling.


In the mid to long term I think Kotlin and KMP are likely to be where Google puts its effort. Flutter is likely toast but it will be some time before KMP is polished enough to replace it.


I've used Flutter and Kotlin MP. There's zero reason for me to believe Kotlin MP is superior, so why would it replace Flutter???


I like Flutter a lot and I think right now it's much more capable and mature than KMP is. The problem is Google is in aggressive cost cutting mode and it's not clear how Flutter contributes to their bottom line in a meaningful way. It's not hard to make the business case that they should shift the considerable resources they now invest in Flutter to focus on Kotlin/Compose and let JetBrains do the heavy cross-platform lifting.

I hope this doesn't happen but as long as Google is willing to cut engineering resources even while they're recording record profits it's hard to be confident.


> it's not clear how Flutter contributes to their bottom line in a meaningful way... focus on Kotlin/Compose and let JetBrains do the heavy cross-platform lifting.

Why do you think Kotlin MP would contribute to JetBrains' bottom line when at the same time you think Flutter does NOT contribute enough to Google's?

I get it, Google's bottom line is on another level, but at the same time, if someone can afford to invest on technologies that do not bring in any profit, that's Google if it thinks it increases its reach, which Flutter/Dart do in a way that Kotlin cannot, given Google controls them but not Kotlin (though you could make a case Google effectively controls Kotlin, at least somewhat?).


JetBrains sells very expensive tooling around Kotlin & KMP. If it takes off their path to profit is pretty clear.

That said, building a really good cross platform UI toolkit and framework is really hard. It remains to be seen if JetBrains can pull it off.


The thing is, KMP might make money for JetBrains, but Google has not yet bought them yet, for reasons I still cannot fathom.


Indeed, their little marriage is the only reason Kotlin matters in first place.


Because of flutters lack of success and company politics.


I mean Kotlin has actually been adopted outside of Android. Maybe it's my bubble but I've never come across an actual Dart / Flutter job.


for the simple reason that with dart / flutter you don't need a huge team. 1 - 2 people are enough.

one codebase to cover web, android, iOS and desktop apps.

and for that simple reason, flutter won't go away. no other UI development framework comes close to the productivity of flutter.


A new operating system done right gets engineers salivating and a lot of very senior staff have personal attachment to Fuchsia.

Personally I think it's a lost cause; every few years they change direction in hopes of finding a concrete use case that doesn't displace some existing Google project. The Nest was Fuchsia's greatest achievement and even that was held together with strings and glue behind the scenes.




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