What I wish India would do is this: force Chinese phone companies to ship stock Android and full source code. They sell hundreds of millions of phones in India and will have to find middle ground, and the outcome will be good for everyone.
Google neither uses stock Android on Pixel phone nor release full source code of pixel phones, so why should only the Chinese be forced to do that?
Before anyone downvotes or questions if Pixel uses Stock Android, ask yourself why Pixels have Pixel exclusive features not available in AOSP or not used by Android 1 phones like Nokia
I would like to see India start replacing inexpensive phones made in China with inexpensive phones made in India. In all cases it's better if India develops their own industry further such that they rely on China less.
If they can make iPhones in India, they can certainly figure out how to build competitive, inexpensive phones to replace those made in China.
This has already happened. All of the cheap Chinese phone manufacturers build their Indian phones in India and this features prominently in their advertising.
Xiaomi, Oneplus, and Huawei do phone design. To be fair, the design involves choosing from US/Taiwan designed/fabricated chips and gluing them together with firmware and PCB layouts, so it's not like China can replicate the entire phone manufacturing supply chain either.
I expect this to increase prices for chinese phones. It is well known that xiaomi operates on thin margin so they can push their IT services and recoup the cost.
> Ads in default apps, user data collection and selling the said collected data.
That's almost everyone. Yesterday, I opened a brand new budget samsung phone. Despite not logging in anything and declining every box I could, it was automatically filled with invasive apps. It came with made in India sticker.
At least with xiaomi, I can flash it with a custom rom and remove the bloatware. Many alternatives lock down their phone.
The other phones that I would trust are expensive and out of reach for many Indians such as the pixel (their last device was banned in India).
I flashed my s8+ with LineageOS 4 or 5 months ago and am happy with the results.
You'll need to check if your snapdragon or exynos for compatability.
It gets you the latest version of android (since samsung decided that 2 years is all they're willing to support their flagship phone for) and a complete lack of bloatware.
I'll add that some apps (noteably netflix and banking) can throw a hissy fit on rooted phones and you will have to use something like Magisk to get the app store to function correctly and allow you to download the apps.
All Samsung phones (except those bought on carrier in USA) have unlockable bootloaders.
Xiaomi phones have a waiting period, you are required to log in with a Mi account then use the phone connected to the internet for 7 days to be able to unlock it.
Samsung here seems way more user friendly. And with Treble GSI ROMs, you can flash a custom OS on any phone, except Samsung has less problems on average with the kernel (ignoring their security features) compared to Xiaomi which requires a custom kernel in many cases to enen boot a GSI.
Yep, it's pretty much the only way TV manufacturer's are able to compete these days too. I wish these kinds of things were considered market failures because if a gov't came in and forced the whole market to stop TVs would get a little more expensive but now they wouldn't feel like they had to sell their users out because everyone else is.
The first app I install in any Android device I get my hands on is NoRoot Firewall, and block (global) any offensive IPs or URLs.
Another option that annoys me (but I understand it is user friendly to have it enabled by default) is that when you install an app it automatically switches on Data and WiFi access to it (and the firewall blocks it until I allow it).
The issue is not hardware or OS software, it's content control.
CCP has a unit within almost every Chinese company making sure they adhere to CCP policy it's impossible to avoid when data is on the other side of the fence.
is there some kind of signature you can use to ascertain that the code you have is what's actually on the device ?
Is it possible to do the same for the SIM (as I understand it, it is its own microsystem and intelligence companies have already _at least_ attempted to insert their code in there) ?
what about play services or its equivalent ? These are often closed source and have lots of system permissions (since they handle lots of capabilities, they need a broad access).
edit : for clarity, I don't think it is a bad idea, I just wonder how doable it is.
I think this might be related to the Tibetan origin special forces soldier of Indian Army being killed in some recent altercation with PRC on their northern border.[1]
I do think India is going on a slippery slope now. With Tiktok, one can even make a case of it being used to manipulate sentiments and being used for propoganda, but
that argument can hardly be made for a game like PubG. It also brings into question whether the ruling government can disrupt a business on its whim of the day.
Also, as far as I understand India is far more dependent economically on trade with China then China is on India. Do they really want to start a trade war with China?
The ruling government has destroyed the Indian economy with its arbitrary decisions. And sometimes the get the judiciary to chip in as well.
The first real disaster to the Indian economy was the billions in retroactive taxes that were applied to telecoms. And then the attempt made by the government to break through the corporate firewalls and extract that money from foreign parents. That hit FDI immediately.
That was followed by demonetization, extremely poor rollout of GST, a terribly executed lockdown and subsequent reopening, and now the arbitrary control over Chinese companies when China is probably the largest private investor in India right now. All these things are hurting India with little benefit to show for, other than jingoistic support for the ruling party.
India is yet another example of “<Country> First” parties coming in and taking actions which undermine the absolute fundamentals of what the country is and damaging it and its citizens in so many ways.
Make life terrible for your citizens and blame China while looting your citizens left right and center is apparently a winning strategy in multiple countries.
Retroactive taxes was from previous gov. After recently launched PLI scheme, India has record high FDI inflows[1]. FDI was flat in 18 and 19, started increasing last year after corporate tax cut and further after PLI scheme.
Of course, India still has long way to go regarding Ease of Doing Business, with byzantine land and permit laws, capital crunch for MSME etc.. Some states like UP, Gujarat are trying to get around byzantine laws by abolishing them for few years. And of course GDP will contract after complete lockdown for a quarter.
> and now the arbitrary control over Chinese companies when China is probably the largest private investor in India right now
I do not fully agree with some of the other points made, but this I completely disagree. There are many reasons the banning of Chinese money and influence in India is a long term strategic security issue.
For the immediate short-term, there are Chinese tanks, fighter planes, artillery and soldiers gathering across the border with India, with multiple incidents and provocations. India still has the debacle of 1962 Sino-Chinese war fresh in it's mind. Couple that with the recent aggressive posturing, land grabs and general disregard for the rights of other countries displayed by China, it is obvious why Chinese capital and companies have to be banned or reduced.
You cannot have trade / exchanges with a country that is on the verge of attacking you. The very fact that China chose a military display of power to provoke India, very clearly shows that China does not respect India and it's sovereignty.
Now you may couple this with other aspects of Indian domestic and foreign policies, but those have to be solved through other channels. Not by military force.
Perhaps you are from the US, and believe that global flow of capital is more important and sacred than other issues, but I would encourage you to have a look from a different perspective.
Investments by Chinese companies in various countries around the world makes it clear that China is trying to influence internal politics of other nations through it's money and loans.
Please read how Chinese companies have wreaked havoc in Africa and South-east Asia.
At this point of time, China simply cannot be trusted by India and Indians. Neither should other countries. Because, in the long term, China has plans for world domination and being a super power. But that is not based on sound values, like that in the US constitution, but based on authoritarian diktats and a world view where Chinese usually see no one is their equal or even close to being one.
Please cite your sources, exactly and to the point.
Lockdown if executed in any way would have been abused by the people.
People went on a rampage in *religious ( Taliban linked)" gatherings, India didn't had much cases but these bunch of people made sure the cases spread.
It's the people to he blamed for the lockdown spread
The Aurangabad branch of the Bombay High Court has quashed cases against members of the Tablighi Jamaat (which parent seems to be confusing with the Taliban) and said that they were made "scapegoats". [1]
In any case, large gatherings in both religious and political contexts have continued during lockdown. The lockdown has had no apparent success in reducing the rate of new infections. [2]
And what was the Ayodhya temple inauguration but a superspreader event endorsed by the highest political power in the land, disguised as a religious gathering?
But the comment made an inaccurate claim regarding the Taliban (which is not relevant in any way related to Covid infections in India) and neglected to provide any sources for their own claim while demanding sources from their parent.
Asking people to cite their sources in good faith is very welcome. Asking people to cite their sources in bad faith is not welcome because commenting in bad faith is not welcome. It says so in the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
My comment was about asking for sources, which is not mentioned in the guidelines specifically. "Assume good faith" is about how comments are to be interpreted, presumably when there is ambiguity. I don't see that it applies in this case.
> Please cite your sources, exactly and to the point.
This isn't a polite way to ask someone to provide evidence for their claim, it's a demand dressed up as a courteous request with the implication that the comment it was replying to was not "exactly and to the point" and that the author has some sort of onus to improve the quality of their conversation. But in fact it's really just a lazy comment because it costs almost nothing to post and yet puts significantly higher burden on the other side, especially because it is picky. Doing this is a classic example of engaging in bad faith.
(Good ways of asking for a citation might include "I don't agree with that, in fact I don't really think that I can find any examples of this occurring the way you have laid out. Would you mind giving some examples to show this actually happening?" This allows the author to provide sources without being left open to an immediate response that those sources are not "exactly and to the point" and is actually a deferential want rather than an imposition.)
India has all the right to protect its economy and people from chinese spying and tech dependency . Is nt that what US is doing with tariffs and bringing back jobs??
"Do they really want to start a trade war with China?"
why not?? It already too late to stop china. India needs to protect its borders and economy from chinese incursions
It is, but for PRC, US is a major export partner, they can't really cut them off without themselves suffering too. So, US can afford to go on offensive there. Also, US does have technological capability to build the things they import themselves.
India and China aren't exactly friends, I think its pretty reasonable to limit business ties of any kind. A sovereign nation has the right to ban any import, are you disputing that?
I'm struggling to understand the intent of your comment. In no way is it about "not having the right". I took it to mean the implications of a souring relationship - which certainly isn't the "right direction" to see relationships evolve.
China and India are economic giants - it'd would be preferable that they not see each other as not friends.
Is a video game, or any digital file, "an import" anymore? There's nothing physical to be imported so what the government is really "banning" here is access to information. That makes me a little uncomfortable, especially given India's reason: "they are engaged in activities which is prejudicial to sovereignty and integrity of India, defence of India, security of state and public order".
I'm not even sure what that means but I suspect that's intentional. From my reading though it doesn't sound like India is doing this as economic sanctions or for the health/safety/welfare of citizens (which would be the typical reasons for a democracy to ban an import). Instead it seems the government has decided that allowing citizens to access this information presents some sort of national security threat.
I don’t understand the argument you are trying to make. Yes, China bans Google and Facebook, and it’s legitimate as they are a sovereign nation. Are you in fact advocating for those two companies to be allowed in China? If I recall correctly Google even banned itself from there because they didn’t wanted to comply with local regulations.
I keep hearing people saying it's wrong that China bans Google and Facebook. But why it's OK for India to ban Chinese apps? What is the difference here?
Why would the PRC follow India’s lead in foot shooting when they can simply not and come out better?
It’s like the US which is currently undermining itself in some sort of nonsensical effort to match China in the very things we don’t like about China and ends up hurting China.
India's economy won't be affected by the loss of PUBG. But it will without certain critical parts of the manufacturing supply chain. I don't know what those parts are, but the Chinese govt will know. A good example of this in action is banning exports of rare earth metals to Japan in 2010, affecting Japan's electronics industry.
India is imposing import restrictions on things they could make themselves, like software. Export restrictions would comprise things India can't make alternatives for, like electronics and pharmaceutical chemicals. The effect is closer to the US banning export of chips and foundry services to Huawei.
Unlike the US's tech export restrictions though, anything China makes India could probably find an alternative supplier for, just at a higher cost and lower volume. It'll still hurt, just not as much as being pressured by the US.
Sort of calls into question the quality of the citizen in a modern democracy if they are asked to make judgments on war and industry and yet they cannot be trusted with online video games.
The founders of modern democracy already questioned the quality of the average citizen and whether they could be trusted with policy making. Hence the US was founded as a representative democracy. Citizens didn't make judgements on war and industry, they made judgements on politicians that would do so on their behalf.
The founding fathers were so concerned about this, that the US was also founded as a representative democracy, where the only people whose opinions counted were wealthy white landowning men.
Let's not look at a model where less than 2% of the population could vote as some brilliant stroke of foresight. It was created by aristocrats for aristocrats.
Mind you, this post does not advocate for direct democracy, but the origin myth of the founding fathers always needs to be looked at with a bit more context then it is usually afforded.
Well the argument for that at the time was that the only people who really received any halfway decent education were wealthy white landowning men. The idea being that education's important for comparing policy and making a good decision re: representation, or more generally that an educated populace is important for a functioning democracy.
And in that I kinda agree; an educated population is Important for a functioning democracy. While the mindset/culture/resource limitations of the time resulted in that being both discriminatory and classist, it's different today since we have universal standards of education.
Whether our current standards are good enough is a different argument
Fine, then look with even more context. You're forgetting that the founding fathers didn't actually care about white landowning men specifically, that was a product of their time. They thought of women and minorities voting back then like we think of people under 18 voting today -- so normal and "obvious" that you don't even question it.
And their writings about representative democracy and fears about the typical citizen not being qualified to make policy decisions applied to those white landowning men. The voting population was entirely aristocratic equals and yet they still didn't think direct democracy would work.
You may be right, but that still wouldn't say anything about their decision to construct a representative democracy. It just sounds like you have an ax to grind against a bunch of dead guys.
It's still true that only about 2% of people can vote in America today. That's because it's a right restricted to members of the privileged citizen class. You might say that foreigners shouldn't vote because it doesn't affect them, but it does. America has a lot of influence over other countries whose citizens are as helpless as blacks and women back then.
I think your math is a bit off. More than 2 percent of the US population voted in the previous election. Unless you are claiming that 330 million over the entire world population is 2 percent and thus only the people located in America (or citizens overseas) can vote which is and should be true.
Or maybe citizens on an individual level benefit more from online video games then they are harmed by them. If I played PUBG, the enjoyment from the game far outweighs the tiny risk that the data I leak to China is going to hurt me someday.
Really country's claiming interests is so damn vague it should be a massive red flag as it can justify just about anything including say leveling Mount Everest to try to bring in more rain.
I appreciate the sentiment of having more domestic alternatives and competition but there's an insignificant amount of work here. Indie developers and studios won't start making apps and games for India unless they can sustain themselves. That is hard. I expect bigger companies such as jio to take lion's share and have a default monopoly at this point.
> India has emerged as the fastest growing app market in the world with 19 billion apps downloaded in 2019, up from 6.55 billion in 2016, according to data from analytics and market intelligence firm App Annie’s State of Mobile 2020 report published last week.
> Indians have spent only $120 million on mobile apps whereas China dominates mobile spending with $48 billion, which is 40% of total revenue generated through mobile apps.
> In-app subscriptions contributed to 96% of spend in top non-gaming apps.
> PM Narendra Modi on Sunday urged startups and entrepreneurs to develop innovative “toys and games, for India and of India” to meet domestic demand and increase its share in the global toy business, estimated at Rs 7 lakh crore. He also called upon people to support indigenously developed apps which could replace the ones currently in vogue and are controlled by foreign companies.
Jio unfortunately blatantly copies western apps and adds a 'Made in India' tag. Therefore people think it is patriotic to use it.
They copied Whatsapp but removed the end to end encryption.
They copied Zoom and removed the decent security.
They copied amazon and started JioMart, whose apps look exactly the same.
Am waiting for them to start Jioogle, as an alternative search engine.
Once Jio is a monopoly, you'll have to get JioMilk from JioCow which'll be grazed on JioFarms using JioGrass in JioContainers. The cows will drink JioWater which'll come from JioMonsoon from JioRiver on JioMountain.
You'll also use JioApps on JioAndroid (* in partnership with Google) which you'll buy from JioMart which'll use JioRouter and JioFiber on Jio sim card, it'll use JioDart for delivery and the delivery guy will use JioHonda bike using Reliance for petrol on JioRoad (special roads to be used only by Jio Customers) breating JioAir (special air for Jio customers), biker will use JioGlass which'll connect to JioNet using JioVast for virus protection.
You'll also use JioVators in JioMalls to go up and down the floors watch a JioCinema in the JioMall, walk on JioTiles use JioRailings.
You'll get JioPlants from JioNursery which'll be plucked from JioForest growing on JioSoil.
You'll vote in JioElections using JioEVMs while standing in JioLines having a JioVoterCard while living in a Jiocracy.
That's kind of bad, but I think that for regular users, it's a non-feature. They don't care. They only care about traffic not being snooped in along the way. They will trust the messenger company.
I'd imagine JioChat is encrypted in transit, isn't it?
The reason e2ee is necessary in india is people share all things online. Especially in chat. Passports, certificates, health related stuff. We are very open online.
My point was that we need to do more than just a ban.
> Chinese apps have always been a security risk
I don't disagree. But I find this phrasing a little unclear. National security and broadly speaking security are different. Indian apps and services don't fare well in the latter category.
> but there are alternatives.
Yes, but why haven't they seen the same growth naturally?
The top grossing page is filled with more Indian apps only recently due to the political atmosphere. What happened before?
Indian companies and developers have a cultural advantage and market understanding both of which are important for entertainment services to take off such as games. What's the reason behind the lag? Can you give examples of alternatives that were well established before this year?
> Mostly youth will be annoyed by lack of their favorite time-waster apps
This mentality doesn't help. This is discouraging individuals from experimenting with creative outlets in the country. That would have given us more Indian games opposed to china filling the market. E-sports is a big industry and is only growing. How do you expect anyone to innovate here when they are demonized by culture for taking interest in these games?
Surely, the problem is people aren't educated on topics such as addiction and they are considered as taboos.
This is typical HN mentality to assume that other people are comparatively well versed in technical aspects. 99% indians (may be a little exaggerated figure) don't have any clue about VPN. Most don't even know how to side-install any app. So government actions do have some significance.
There is no need to side-install; just go on the play store and search for some bullshit spam phrase like 'unblock pubg' and you'll get your pick of dozens if not more of ad-filled, malicious "VPN" that does MITM and ad injection into all pages.
You'll literally get thousands of results of spam apps just directly named "VPN FOR PUBG" or "VPN UN BLOCK PUBG GROUNDS BATTLE PLAYER GAME CALL OF DUTY SPONGEBOB ESPONJA BOB", all of which are malware.
I just checked for myself, and this is pretty much how it is. The publishers behind this garbage have hundreds of uploaded apps, all of which are effectively the same one but with different names like "UNBLOCK P U B G PAKISTAN" or "VPN FOR PUBG PLAYER FORT NIGHT", and a random one loaded virtually every single data-exfiltration SDK known to man, and several known to animals.
My aunt and mother use a bunch of websites I've never heard of for free streaming of movies and TV shows. They may not be the most informed about potential hidden costs of these services, but they are definitely resourceful in finding them. I think you overestimate the difficulty of using technology. All you need to do is learn to type "How do I get $web_service for free?" in the search bar.
I don’t think that 99% is correct. I know my brother who never used a computer knows how to share apps without internet and play store. They install apps using shareit like apps.
I know people who use VPN, but can't reinstall windows. Using VPN today is so simple, people do that without even knowing that they do. For them, it's: "I installed this thingy and now I can watch Hulu" and not "I install VPN to route my traffic via other country in order to by-pass national firewall"
I wonder how much of that is a networking effect. If you met an Iranian woman outside of Iran, the chances they had the money to travel or have a connected family is higher.
I think the government nets capture lots of people. Anyone who is trying to avoid it can but those groups tend to be middle class or higher. So maybe instead of 99% it's like 51%?
She was probably one of the most driven women I've ever seen. I had immense respect for her.
She hadn't been back to see her family for 10 years for fear of not being able to come back due to not having her green card yet. She finally got it and we were all super happy for her.
What you're saying might be true, I never got a good sense of how rich or poor her family was, but she was always studying, always trying to be better. It was a very sharp contrast to most/all Americans I know.
She came to this country through drive rather than money, of that I have no doubt.
and neither are comparable to china, and yet the overarching idea, that strong government restrictions on the populace could drive said populace to be better educated in the use of ways around those restrictions still holds for all three.
You can say the same about Facebook and Google in China...You can sideload or use VPN. Some do. Most don't. Blocking FB & Google ecosystems allowed for China to grow their own competitors.
China has invested into its Great Firewall, which is far, far better than the techniques most ISPs here use to block websites. Besides, VPNs aren't banned, and the government isn't cracking down on generic VPNs. It's far easier to get a VPN in India to browse TikTok than it is to get a VPN in China to browse Facebook. You can even see it in the list of apps that were banned - there's two literally called "VPN for TikTok".
The thing is, there's hardly anything outside GFW that an average Chinese would want, local alternatives often are feature rich and considered "more advanced", outside news are dismissed as "obscenely fake and hostile".
In the few Chinese that do pay for VPNs, most women use it to access Instagram for celebrities, most men for porn on Twitter.
Exactly. People are missing the point that bringing in new customers is a lot harder if you have to go through a number of additional loops to install an app and even find out about it. Local rivals have a massive leg up. Over time, once local rivals develop and they are easily accessible and feature rich, then people will stop using the Chinese apps. Just look at the latest YC batch which was full of Indian startups.
Facebook Messenger also "wasn't even started till 2011". Before 2011 China had very mature local messaging (QQ, from the company behind WeChat) and less mature but burgeoning social networking (loads of them I believe, including part of QQ). Cherry-picking the date of one next-gen product that later took over is meaningless.
Hmm...per Wikipedia the original Facebook chat was started in 2008. Facebook Messenger for mobile was 2011. QQ didn't have their mobile version till 2013.
Facebook cannibalized social networks in the US and homegrown networks abroad. Though we'd never know, I'd believe they would have done the same in China.
The ones who will use a VPN to access stuff, are generally of above average IQ, who are less susceptible to propaganda. Not entirely immune, but less susceptible.
Leaving that aside, bans have a very real impact, even if there are other channels to access banned content. You cannot advertise banned content, you cannot distribute it en-masse, you cannot hold competitions, etc, etc. All these have massive effects on the marketing and sales channels.
Sure, some %age of people will use it from VPNs and stuff, but those are few and far between.
In case of online games, people may simply move to other games like Fortnite or what not.
I know tech-savvy software developers of mine, who hardly side load apps. Why? Side loading apps when a secure and curated app store is available is generally avoided due to security and other issues.
In India, with every smartphone having digital payment apps, and the prevalence of scams and frauds, most middle class, urban teens and adults will generally avoid side loading apps. You can safely assume that many in rural areas, are not even aware of side loading stuff.
China is taking digital addiction very seriously. They have taken strong measures. Some of them are well positioned and others are pure authoritarian. I expect India to follow soon though I have little hope for good long term policies. I expect them to be reactionary and punitive.
People fear education here. I think about why and can only come with few theories.
Always wondered about these Free VPNs, how are they free? Are they actually free? Is that why you used "Free" in quotes? Must be a valid model behind it since the bandwith must be insane.
Google and Facebook sell access to you on thru their ads. The advertiser doesn't get your information. The free VPNs are probably selling your information, browsing history, and anything else they can get on you.
The Chinese government mandates that every app written in China must track and trace it's users.
This applies to apps running outside China but owned by Chinese companies.
1+ or Xiaomi or Huawei, they can't really do anything about it.
It's surprising to see people in the US defend tiktok without realizing what's actually going on behind the scenes. Every company that does business in China, especially if hugely successful, will have the government step in to intervene and spy.
I'm hearing that China might impose secondary sanctions on Reliance Jio in retaliation - no Chinese manufacturer can sell them phones or help buildout/maintain their NW infrastructure; tech companies that operate in China would have to divest out of China entirely to do business with Jio, etc.
We simply can't afford German, US or Taiwan tools/machineries.
And if it's gone, big players will not affected by small players will have major problem. Getting manufacturing permission in India is not easy and very resource intensive.
China already frequently bans non-local apps, don't they? So I'm not sure what recourse they have other than escalating this to a real trade war instead of a digital trade war.
This is in response to Chinese incursion into disputed territory that has left soldiers on both sides dead.
Talking heads in India say these measures are Sun-Tsu like and mesmerized the enemy —Obviously the talking heads are propagandists, but on the other hand this is about the skirmishes on the Himalayas.
India heavily depends on software consulting and BPO exports for its foreign currency (over 100 billion usd per year).
If China really wants to retaliate, it can sanction the WITCH companies and force any multinational who wants to be in China to not use them. This will also benefit competitors in other developing countries like Phillipines or Pakistan.
India is playing with fire here. Especially dropping out of RCEP, the risk being encircled economically.
TikTok/PUBG are "bannable" items; banning physical items that people need/use daily, most of which are made in china, will majorly backfire. The average voter doesn't care enough about these apps to raise a stink.
My take is that these markets can only take on China when the Chinese software is the significant player in the market, while they are non-essential for the fundamental functionality of a society. On the other hand, there are barely any significant Indian software on the Chinese market, while lots of American software provide non-replicable (at least not immediately) functionality (e.g. MatLab / Microsoft Office / Windows).
They could retaliate by preventing foreigners from outright owning businesses in China, or encroach on one of their bordering neighbors, or steal some IP.
Can anyone tell me how a country is able to block these apps and sites? What is the hardware required? What's the process to do so. Any reference to existing articles would be amazing.
I think app stores across mobile OSes maintain region specific marketplaces. Developer accounts are also able to be localized. I assume it is trivial for, say, Google to block all apps from Chinese developers on the Play Store for any customer localized to India.
So its just about the Indian Gov sending an email to Google and Apple. Didn't know its was this super easy once the country decides regardless of any knowledge about how this is actually done.
https://internetfreedom.in is doing important work in challenging the Indian government's surveillance and censorship apparatus. If you're passionate about this, consider donating to them and/or participating in the conversation. They're active, from time to time, on r/India as well.
(not affiliated with them in anyway or form, but I do work on anti-censorship tech).
If you visit r/india do visit r/indiadiscussion as well to see how r/india bans anyone that does not go against their views. It is the most censored subreddit i have ever seen and likely a battleground of information warfare.
I would just suggest third party persons reading both this and above post to visit and analyze it for themselves.
Yeah, as far as country subs go that is one of the most toxic ones.
I tried to use it for some travel advice but what I noticed was just sheer negativity and an echo chamber where any contrarian opinion is suppressed. I wonder if the irony of doing this and then complaining about suppression of dissent by the current establishment is lost on them.
> https://internetfreedom.in is doing important work in challenging the Indian government's surveillance and censorship apparatus.
> They're active, from time to time, on r/India as well.
I'm all for challenging government surveillance and censorship. But the irony here is laughable given r/India's propensity to hand out bans like chocolates for anyone not subscribing to the groupthink.
It's not exactly clear if the Indian Government has authority enough to do this ban, without presenting concrete evidence, under existing laws. There seems to be no semblance of a due process. As a democratic country India seems to trust its own citizens very less.
Banning or not sufficient case has not been made in the public, only a cryptic communique from the Govt is all.
What exactly was the threat from PUBG, which is not there in other games?
PUBG was raking in the cash in India. I know quite a few people who snuck in games in breaks, and nearly every delivery guy I saw waiting around restaurants and stores was playing PUBG. PUBG mobile streams on YouTube were massive. IMO this is probably more about the economics, given we have no way of verifying whether or not PUBG was actually stealing any data.
One thing I find amusing in this saga that's been playing out since the last few months is TikTok's reaction to being banned. When it was banned in India a couple of months ago, it didn't file any lawsuits claiming that it's not a threat to national security (though it has rejected such claims in the past). But when the U.S. announced a ban last month, TikTok sued the U.S. government "on the grounds that it was enacted without evidence and without any due process." [1]
I wonder what action these companies will take with this ban or what leverage China may try to use to de-escalate the situation.
I think two important factors in play here, one is like what others said about better trust on the legal system in US to be relatively more independent; second I guess is just US market is too lucrative and significant to just let go.
There are. Tiktok was banned in India on an earlier occasion because some women’s groups, or a ruling party politician, I fail to remember which, had claimed the app was morally corrupting the youth or some such thing. This ban was overturned once the company filed a case in the courts. IIRC, one of the arguments the defence successfully used was the ban would result in large job losses within the company. We are obviously way past any such argument now.
Only 65% of the value, and tbh, the R&D is in China, and most of the data collection that mi does benefits China much more than India. Hard to call it a phone "By India For India."
I mean, I guess that would be a great benefit to the non-Chinese competitors then, Samsung, Google, Apple, etc. I don't see that this would be hugely disruptive to the country.
Xiaomi phones are better and cheaper than Samsung, Google, and certainly Apple equivalents. The Mi 10 Ultra is ~780$ and is just flat out better than a 1200$ phone from Samsung, including the best camera of any phone bar none.
This is not related to any nationalism. Its the response of a sovereign nation in order to secure the data of its citizens which might face 'potential war with China'.
If a nation A attacks B, and nation B fights back for its cause, would would call the response of B to be 'nationalism'? Or just protecting sovereignty?
Modi has nationalist agenda but I doubt this one falls under it. Given the consistent Chinese aggression, I guess any other political party would have done the same.
Curious on what is the general view of Indian population, twitter is full of trolls and paid campaign. From what I gather in chinese forum, I don't think any one believes China was the aggressive side, their most aggression is on getting Taiwan/ROC back.
It is funny to see on twitter some people accusing other side's aggression yet boasting about victory of getting further across LAC.
If it is pure unadulterated nationalism, only one country would not be targeted. It is fair to say, China is a Clear and Present danger to Indian Union and in a war-like state banning games should not be that controversial. You do not want to fund the bullets being shot at your soldiers as much as possible.
Nationalist countries often have "the enemy". It used to be Pakistan for India until very recently. Now it's China, only because of recent events, and there aren't very many Pakistani apps to ban either.
All countries which play the geopolitical game have "enemies". Pakistan and China are geopolitical allies, the Belt and Road initiative runs through Pakistan while Pakistan provides a port to China. The two states have very little in common ideologically, but as is the norm in geopolitics, common interests usually trump ideology.
Not in this case - since India app banning is more or less confined to China.
India is a fragmented country and the nationalism that western liberals cry about is the one of the few Centripetal forces pulling the fragmented states together and giving a semblance of cohesion in policy and governance.
I am not from India - so it doesn't matter what I think. I was asking a question.
I notice from my own country that the power around the sitting government has been strengthened over the COVID-pandemic and the opposition is very weak.
I can only imagine how things would centralise further had my country also been under the threat of war.
Defense and Communications have been Central portfolio since 1950 in India. There is no centralization of power happening, and there is no state that is protesting the current banning of apps.
That's rare. Typically you would think bad situations are good cards for oppositions. Pandemic, not standing up strongly against 'enemy', are good cards for playing the nationalism game. Unless the sitting government have handled the situation very well, the opposition will have something to say about it and people would agree with them.
The average Indian loves Modi. He is India's most liked leader since Indira.
How people are looking at it:
> raging pandemic
It is not his fault. (to some extent they are correct. Covid and India, was like lighting a match in a haystack. Central Govt.'s response to Covid has been far less shambolic than the numbers make it look)
> Massive recession
Modi gets to blame it on Covid. Demonetization and an unclear fiscal policy have just as much to do with it. So, he is only 50% correct.
> Potential war with China
I don't exactly blame him for this either. He seems to actually have bipartisan support for this. China is pretty much trying to take over Indian land, so the reaction is warranted.
> Crackdown in Kashmir
Kashmir in Modi's era is a weird mix of success and failure. The removal of article 370 is a great idea that would allow Kashmir to finally reintegrate properly. The opposition to it was also muted, since it was a bipartisan goal of both Indian national parties. Modi just had the mandate and right votebank to do it.
The reintegration process however, was slower than expected, and led to a period where Kashmiris experienced loss of freedom that was looked down upon by many. It has been getting better, but it could still be faster.
> Internet bans
Can I say, I absolutely approve of these in India. The pace of spread of mis-information on mom&pop groups on whatsapp is unbelievable. There are many bad faith actors who use crises to incite riots. A few hour internet or whatsapp blackout is absolutely essential to govern in a reasonable way in India.
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Modi is not good for India.
I do not like him.
But, the west and Indian left-elite completely miss what's wrong with him. The rising popularity of Modi while the whole left-establishment shouting that his time is over is as clear as it gets.
So, I'll enumerate what I think Modi's biggest issues are, in ascending order.
1. Lack of seasoned/qualified generals to run a full cabinet. (the death of Jaitley, Sushma, Parrikar made it worse)
2. Over-reliance on India's tired and stagnant bureaucrat class to make up for it, instead of external experts.
3. Homogenizing the Hindu community at large, to form a bipolar nation (Hindus vs Muslims = BJP vs Congress).
4. Centralizing control (very Indira-esque... really, to undertand Modi, just ask : "what would Indira do")
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Modi didn't happen out of nowhere.
The complete incompetence of the Indian National Congress at mounting anything resembling an opposition is primary to Modi's rise. A hero only exists, when they have a demon to kill. As long as the INC continues to try to draw from the drying well of nepotistic 'Gandhi-name' goodwill, it will continue down the death spiral they are in.
If there was a silver lining, maybe Modi will force the rise of a more socially open and meritocratic left in India.
An interesting tidbit about demonetization not well known is that GoI got 115% cash back, so literally 15% of the cash in the market was fake. It is not publicized officially but well known in inner circles. The problem of cash based businesses not paying taxes (especially real estate) was serious. It is true that the impact was much higher on the common man, but then at least i believe the intention was clear. Very few leaders before had the ability to take such decisions overnight. Economy is really impacted due to NPAs and i can safely argue that misspent stimulus during 2008 have much more to do with it, combined with the fact that the infrastructure development will take time to show results. You have to give credit to Modi for Jan Dhan Yojana, building toilets, accelerating expenditure on solar energy, roads and most importantly the ignored sector of Indian railways. I still feel your comment is the rare balanced comment i will see here.
Very interesting comment but I think the bit about Kashmir is naïve. Kashmir doesn’t want to reintegrate (“re”?) and India’s move here has been much like China’s in Hong Kong - a deliberate, authoritarian takeover.
Kashmir is the most important strategic post bordering 3 nuclear nations at war-ish with each other.
It is landlocked, with each country controlling different parts of it, and 2 claiming it in entirety.
J&K is a 3 part territory, of which 99%+ of Leh, Ladakh and Jammu want to be a part of India. So, if Kashmir was to be independent, it would be tiny, vulnerable and entirely dependent on neighboring states, that it would be at war with.
Now, there is also the fact that over the last 200 years, native Hindu Kashmiri communities have been driven out (literally, by violence) of Kashmir, so Kashmir independence can't exactly be unilateral.
Lastly, India is a proper democratic nation. States have full rights and religious + cultural diversity is celebrated. I am as biased as it gets, but I'd say India is the best option among Pakistan, India and PRC run China.
Thanks for posting unbiased news from non-state funded Aljazeera. It is great that they have so many sources too. A whole '0' sources.
There are at least a dozen conflicting historian accounts on what and how things went down in the India-Pakistan partition.
I am sure my recollection of it isn't the most faithful to the yet unknown truth, but I am certain in it being more reliable than AlJazeera of all media outlets.
Xinjiang is actually a better equivalent to Kashmir, not Hong Kong.
Depending on what you read, separatism in both places is either fuelled by fundamentalist ideologies or right for self determination. Kashmir is far more tricky though based on how the separatism has been fueled into an armed conflict by a neighbor.
To understand the sentiment in both places, you will need to read the history of both countries, and no it doesn't just start from 1940s.
In the current atmosphere of raging nationalism, no opposition party will protest the legality/sensibility of the ban for the fear of being labelled "traitor"/"anti-national"/"friends of China" etc. Anyway, these are token populist bans without any real teeth. India lost 20 soliders in the Chinese aggression along the line-of-control; Modi didn't once name China as the aggressor responsible for that.
India doesn't have a strong and credible opposition. Otherwise, with the economy in shambles due to a series of shitty decisions like demonetization/poor implementation of GST etc, any component front shouldn't have much difficulty mobilizing popular support.
sigh. Instead of this immense opportunity to see the rise of open source community where EVERYONE is welcome to contribute and make better software, the government is somehow pushing towards making homegrown ad ridden closed source clones of popular ad ridden closed source Chinese apps. Yucks
