One thing I've noticed, having worked for startups with older founders: when you're over 35, it's to your advantage to start a different kind of company. When you're in your early 20s, it makes sense to swing for the fences with a new consumer idea that's wildly innovative and nobody really understands. That way, your lack of experience isn't really a drawback (nobody knows what they're doing, so the fact that you don't know either isn't a significant problem) and your youthful energy lets you discover and explore the market faster than all your older competitors. Plus, much of your peer group consists of people who are open to new ideas and will be "growing into" your market. You can understand them better than older folks. And you can live on less money, which is important, because new markets usually don't involve much cash.

When you're over 35, it makes more sense to leverage your existing experience and network and go into a field close to your existing job - often, your first customer will be your last employer. Start small with something you can sell for cash, quickly, and then leverage your network to expand to other customers. You're protected from all the young tykes because you know the market and technology better than they do, and you fend off the big companies by concentrating on a niche that's unprofitable for them to devote much attention to.

This, of course, depends upon having experience and contacts to leverage. If you spent your whole career working as a janitor, it may be pretty difficult to start a company, unless you've discovered a new more efficient way to mop floors. But if you've spent your whole career as a sysadmin, it makes a lot of sense to build server administration software that does your job, only better.

Forget the silly ageist remark above - I know what you were trying to say - and you did it well.

If anything, more experience means more exposure to more ideas and thus gives you an advantage in coming up with something innovative. There is more cross-pollination.

This is a function of time and effort and so only loosely correlated with age.

Swing for fences means "take a chance" I assume ?

Sure, being younger allows for more time, but I'd imagine being that age has given you some maturity in handling finances, emotions, etc. I'm sure you'll have to make some sacrifices seeing that you have many commitments and responsibilities, but if it's something you truly want to do, go for it.

At the very least, you'll enjoy the ride, and when things get tough, you'll have your wife and children to find happiness in. And if you're successful, great. Either way, it'll be a journey that I'm sure you wouldn't want to regret never taking down the line.

As far as having a family to support goes, I have 2 kids and I am pretty sure I can't leave my job even though my wife works. That just means I would have to do something part time, which in the end may be better. I read an article where an entrepreneur spoke about the fact that founders will put a lot of energy into their startup and not develop a balanced life from the outset. That only puts you in a mode where work will always consume a lot of your time and you will not be able to break that cycle. At least if you work 2 jobs for a short period of time, you know at some point you will quit one of them.

I'm now 36, happily married with three kids of my own. I'm bgeinning something along the 37 Signals route - 10 hours a week until I have critical mass.

Overall, I must grudgingly admit that youth has the advantage, so I think us oldsters have to leverage the advantages we do have - experience, money and connections.

My father also started a business (furniture manufacturer!), way back in 1977, when I was only 9.

What I have noticed is that the phrase over here (in England - maybe applies in the US), 'You only get out what you put in'.

Pick a venture that lets you get out more than you put in, eh?

"Reap what you sow" means you get output proportional to input. You'll get more biomass, but you won't get more plants than the amount of seeds you planted.

Here's the advice: Its not just you starting the startup.

If I had a different kind of wife, someone timid, fearful or unwilling to adjust from a standard of living to which she had become accustomed, my startup would have been impossible.

Your wife has to have the bug as well even if shes not directly involved. If instead you get a "whatever you want dear as long as we still have enough money for X (soccer, preschool, shoe-shopping, cabletv... whatever), you are already done.

The two of you can do it together. You can't do it alone. The bright side? You've already got your co-founder. That might also be the downside.

http://www.amazon.com/You-Need-Be-Little-Crazy/dp/079318018X...

I'm 39.5 with 3 kids and working at my 3rd startup. You make sacrifices and I'd be lying if I said my marriage hasn't been strained at times mostly due to financial worries.

It really comes down to this:

“If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy you.”

You have to bring it forth!

Cheers

Wow, a quote from the Gnostic gospels. Very cool. Here is another:

His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?" Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate."

I've often thought of that when I was in work situations where I really did not want to be.

If you want more motivation, look on the web for older people who started businesses.

Removing the word "fail" from you vocabulary have much more to do with it than you think.

Go for it!

I have to say, I think you are correct.

Fear of failure is HUGE.

Imagine if I had a fear of failure.... what could be the outcome?

1) Leave current job (it pays the bills etc.) 2) Start new venture 3) Fail! (I have deliberately shortcut the possible reasons - so bear with me!) 4) No money comes in.... 5) Can't pay bills..... 6) Lose home etc etc

I believe the people who study this type of thought process would call it the Domesday scenario!

I guess success would be called the 'Google scenario'!?

I can't remove the word fail from my vocabulary - just try and make succeed more likely - how?

1) Leave current job (it pays the bills etc.)

2) Start new venture

3) Fail!

4) Get a new job

5) Goto 1)

You could start by removing the word "can't" from your vocabulary.

I assume so, as you clearly understand my comments.

Something more thoughtful would help! ;)

But I don't want to be blindsided by potential problems; I want to catch them as quickly as possible so they can be fixed. My role in the startup has always been the engineer, and as an engineer, it's my job to be pessimistic. (I used to have a business-type cofounder who was much more gung-ho, but he left for B-school, and now I've gotta do both. Concentrating on the product first...)

One of my favorite quotes, though, is:

"Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is being afraid and doing what you have to do anyway."

I'd much rather imagine everything that can go wrong now than be blindsided by it later.

I have always had a lot of respect for you and your contributions here.

At first, I was a little surprised to hear you say, 'but "fail" and "can't" are still very much words in my vocabulary'. I never imagined you as someone who "worried".

But then once I thought about it, it's no surprise at all. There is no one philosophy or "thought set" that makes one a successful hacker or business person. This may be the biggest takeaway for the OP - yes you can; there are very few absolute disqualifiers.

This discussion reminds me of my first 2 mentors, both very successful and great leaders. Neither would accept "no" and both got upset when I used the words "can't" or "but". I know it sounds silly now, but I have maintained that philosophy ever since.

Sometimes forcing yourself to "find the possibilities" brings something out from deep down inside that you never knew was there.

"Disappoint early"

In other words, as soon as you are aware of a problem - Raise it. And then discuss it and work it out.

It may not have been very profound, but that was the most thoughtful response I could give.

I believe the single biggest differentiator between success and failure is not giving up. Removing the words "can't" and "fail" from your vocabulary is a very simple illustration of this philosophy.

(Lighten up, it's metaphorical, not literal.)

I agree totally - sorry if I seemed uptight! (it's late here in the UK!)

You don't go along with the age thing then?

(By the way, it looks like you're getting lots of excellent feedback in this thread. Welcome aboard!)

That said, I wish I had pursued this 20 years ago when I had more time, energy, and freedom -- but I guess I wasn't ready then.

Can I ask what you are doing about it?

I have a vision for a product that would hopefully rock the project management landscape. If only I had 6 months locked with a fellow coder... I'll have to settle for a couple hours a day trying to make a convincing demo to sell the dream.

Here's a video of him giving us some startup advice at justin.tv: http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/58652/Tech_Talk__3_Adam_Beguel...

http://randomthougts101.blogspot.com/2008/05/education-and-t...

The young college drop outs starting extremely successful companies is an exception not a rule.

I'm 36 - over-the-hill by startup standards ;-) - am married and have 2 kids.

The biggest issue to overcome is fear and losing the corporate financial/benefits lifeline (significant obstacles when you have kids).

But honestly, if you can handle kids you can handle a startup. I work all day while my kids are in school and then after they're asleep, I work more. The startup is kinda like another kid. It ain't easy and I won't deny the younger startup founder will have more energy and time. But don't forget that quality of time is a big, big factor! And if you LOVE what you're doing, tinkering on your product/business/whatever won't feel like work (even when it's consuming every waking hour that you're not dealing with the spouse or with the kids).

Feel free to ping me if you ever want to chat about it!

I have personally felt a little off balance seeing people lose color when they see me in person. Since my business requires a lot of off line interaction with people, they generally become a little wary on seeing someone in tees and jeans. If you are going for such a business, your age, and more importantly your maturity will be your biggest asset.

2) Are you willing to commit 20 hours a week part-time or 60 hours a week full time? If "No" to whichever is appropriate then I'd say that you would find it difficult to succeed regardless of other circumstances.

Best of luck to you!

You can definitely do it. My story might help encourage you a bit.

Being a bit older when you start your business can work to your advantage. The reason? You've probably had time to work in another field and see real-world needs in some particular niche. These would be unmet needs that recent graduates might not be able to see. The younger guys do amazing things that blow my mind, but there are tons of opportunities that are overlooked because they are smaller (but still HIGHLY profitable) demographics that don't entice those who want to "change the world."

(I started writing this and then notice that nostrademons made virtually the same point, so I just want to "second" what nostrademons said.)

In my particular case, I worked at an art gallery and over the course of a decade learned the art business inside and out. I now have connections throughout the art industry. About seven years ago, I got the idea to build a little web application helps painters build websites and market their artwork online.

(BTW - I have been astounded at the similarities I, as an aspiring hacker, have with my painter customers, and just within the past few months I've learned of PG's book "Hackers and Painters.")

At first, I only had 5-6 hours ONE DAY A WEEK to devote to developing the application. I had to learn everything. I hadn't programmed seriously in over a decade, so progress was very slow at first. Still, within two months I had my first customer.

I continued to build the application following my one-day-a-week schedule for years. I wasn't willing to give up my job income, so I just kept my little web application going on the side and spent roughly 5 hours a week improving it on my days off.

At the end of year one I had 30 customers. At the end of year 2 I had 60. Year 3? 120 customers (see a pattern?). At the end of year 4 I had 240 customers and finally had the courage to go full-time.

That was three years ago and today I have 2,000 customers - enough to provide a good income for me and my employees . . . and still growing. And I finally get do do what all hackers want to do...code! I now code at least five hours a day (although when my wife is out of town, that number balloons to 36 hour marathons, BTW - thank God you have a wife.....it forces you to have a life too).

I highly respect the 37 Signals crew and I agree with them: Don't focus on building a STARTUP, focus on building a BUSINESS.

If there is a niche or industry that you have deep knowledge of....that will help you as nostrademons said above. You will have knowledge and hopefully, connections. It generally puts you in a situation where you have much less competition. And even the competition you do have isn't likely to be as knowledgeable about your customers' needs as you are. In my situation, I generally know how artists need to market their artwork better than they do (and providing that help to them is part of our service).

Is this route slower? Yes. Is it safer? Of course. But, it my case, I couldn't afford to simply quit my job, so it was the only route possible.

When I started I wasn't really even planning on it to become a full time venture, so chances are, you could start on the side and get profitable in a fraction of the time it took me. I knew nothing about building an online company. The fact that you are following and posting on "Hacker News" shows that you light-years ahead of where I was when I started out.

And the fact that the original idea that pg and Robert Morris had for an online business was an online art gallery.

I think their original idea was actually a web app/site builder for existing art galleries not an online art gallery that they would run.

I am 52 with two kids and I have been doing startups for the last 15 years. You need support from your family and you need good health. It is hard for the family to support you emotionally unless they are financially secured.

Thanks for mentioning this. People don't normally think of their health until they lose it. It's so important that I'd represent it like this...

Probability of success = (a + b + c + ... + z) * health

I am not trying to be rude, overly simple, or anything else that may be viewed as a negative response. I am simply trying to clear away all of the clutter.

EDIT: What I am trying to get is across is this--the only thing that would be stopping you is you. Who cares if you are beyond are a certain age?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

People start up businesses at all ages in other sectors, I don't see why one couldn't for our tech industry.

It's never too late, but you need to lift anchor and set sail!

Just trying to get people thinking.

Thanks anyway.

I wonder how many never ask and never try.

Actually what I was attempting here was to try and question the thinking behind when we can and can't do things that we wish to do.

I don't need anyone to convince me, I was trying to challenge the general perceptions of when you can start a start-up.

I never think a question is a 'stupid question', and I also don't think asking a question is a failure.

I prefer to think in terms of "personal industry" rather than "startup." Personal industry used to be the normal case, with people building their own house, planting their own fields, and so on. I think it's rather odd and sad that so many of us get caught up in corporate life. I have more feelings about this, but am having trouble articulating them

Anyway, to answer the when?: Until I'm so old and decrepit that my children are taking care of me.