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WhatsApp put a (weirdly tame and unremarkable?) image a friend of mine tried to post into review and ended up never letting it show up in a thread, the other day. He was able to post a screenshot of it sitting in his view of the thread, and the message about why it was temporarily delayed (it never showed up, though).

This was in a chat of close friends, not one of those weird huge spammy groups of strangers or something. Nobody was using the report button on him, lol.

We’re all in the US. WhatsApp has some level of awareness of the images you’re sharing, apparently.


The main problem with playing older games in a modern media-hardware environment is the screen. You've got the problem that lots of them look worse, or even outright wrong (see: transparency-layering effects on things like Sonic the Hedgehog) on anything but a real CRT without some serious shader work. This is also true of older TV shows, to some extent, incidentally, especially if the only sources available are things like broadcast rips.

Then problem #2 with the display (mostly) is latency. Those CRTs were fast. Even 50ms of rendering latency is noticeable on a some of the console games that require very-precise input timing.

You get emulation latency (this may avoid that by using ASICs, at least); input latency above what the original hardware had, if you're not using the real thing (bluetooth...); any picture-conversion latency (this might avoid that, but I wouldn't bet on it) to digitize the signal into HDMI if you're working with real hardware with analog outputs; TVs that struggle to get under 50ms of latency, especially without making the picture look a ton worse; and then shader-induced latency if you're trying to make it look semi-correct. Like, getting it down to where it doesn't feel wrong is tricky as hell.


50ms is pretty high, even by LCD standards. I have one of those MiSTer Laggy measuring things, and when I have my cheap Vizio TV in "Game Mode" the latency is around 24ms, a little lower on the top of the screen and a little higher on the bottom, but still considerably lower than 50ms. Moreover, I think that OLEDs can get less than 10ms nowadays (though I do not have one to test at this moment). Since most retro games ran around 60fps, so about 17ms, we're talking about 1.5 frames of latency for the LCD, and about half a frame of latency for an OLED.

With something like the MiSTer, you can also enable high speed USB polling, which I believe is roughly 1000hz. My understanding is that it doesn't work with all controllers, but it has worked with all the controllers I have tried it with.

The composite video artifacts are definitely noticeable though; I noticed the weirdness of the waterfalls in Sonic when I was playing it recently. It doesn't bother me that much but I could see why it bothers other people.


Yeah with mister laggy measuring and my lg g1 oled (six years old now so it may have got better) in game mode latency is 8ms.

Same here, Samsung s95b QD oled, mister laggy tested it, as far as I can remember it's about 8ms. Also snac adapters by pass usb entirely and are pretty much zero lag as far as I understand.

Retro arch has run ahead latency reduction etc, I'd like to see some comparisons of that Vs mister. I could do it myself but I've never got round to it. I've noticed that fiddling with latency reduction in retro arch really works, but it is a lot of fiddling.


I did the preemptive frames thing with Retroarch with Sonic the Hedgehog 3 a couple years ago, and I certainly convinced myself that I could tell a huge difference...and then I kept taking hits and dying just as much as I was without doing anything.

It's entirely possible that someone who is better at video games can tell a huge difference (e.g. speedrunners and the like), but I'm afraid that I'm not good enough at most games to be able to realistically tell much of a difference.

I might still fiddle with it a bit; someone told me that it helps a lot with Mike Tyson's Punch Out, which is a game I have never beaten with an emulator.


Interesting. I bought sonic origins as a palate cleanser the other day and I really feel like I can feel the latency. Sonic 1 was the only game me and my brother had for our mega drive so we know/knew everything there is to know!!

Our speed runs were crazy.

I don’t know if feeling the latency is just my age though, although I’m a semi pro SIM racer still and competitive in my late forties it’s a different kind of twitch reaction.


It's certainly worth trying the preemptive frames in RetroArch to see if you like it. Pretty low risk experiment.

Since most retro games ran around 60fps, so about 17ms,

That’s an oversimplification. Many retro game consoles don’t use a frame buffer. Instead they render the game state to the screen on the fly, one scanline at a time, and they’re able to process input mid-screen because they read the controller input many times faster than 60Hz (on the order of 2kHz). In practice, this means input lag is way below even 1ms.

Lightgun games, for example, rely on very precise timing of the control input vs the CRT raster and simply do not work without a CRT.


>Lightgun games, for example, rely on very precise timing of the control input vs the CRT raster and simply do not work without a CRT.

Perhaps the most famous light gun game of all time (Duck Hunt on the NES), does not rely on especially precise timing. It draws one white rectangle per frame over each duck when you pull the trigger and checks if the Zapper can see it. LCD latency will probably still break this, but it's not like the later Super Scope for the SNES that actually does track the precise raster position. I expect it would be possible to patch the timing in software to make it work for a specific model of LCD. But even if you did this, the Zapper also includes a bandpass filter at the CRT horizontal retrace rate (about 15kHz) to better reject other light sources, so you'd need to mod it to bypass that, or mod the LCD to strobe the backlight at the right frequency.


It draws one white rectangle per frame over each duck when you pull the trigger and checks if the Zapper can see it

Almost, but not quite. First it blanks the entire screen to solid black and uses that to calibrate the black level of the gun, then it draws a white rectangle over one duck on one frame, then a white rectangle over the other duck on the next frame.

The NES could use this information to determine where the gun was pointing by firing an interrupt at the exact moment when the zapper’s photodiode reached a threshold brightness level above black, and then only register a hit if that occurred while the game was drawing the white rectangle. I think in reality the game didn’t care that much about the timing, only that a rising edge occurred after the fully black frame but before the return to a normal colour frame.

Either way, an LCD doesn’t work because it can’t transition full black to full white within a one frame window. It sometimes works in the 2 duck mode, but it usually records a hit on the wrong duck. In any case, it requires black to white latency less than 16ms


I'm not disputing that CRTs have lower input lag than LCDs or OLED. I was disputing the specific 50ms of lag claim that the parent post made; modern LCDs aren't that bad, and OLEDs are getting to a point that it's getting close to undetectable to human eyes. Even with horizontal interrupts that could be done between scanlines, there's still a limit to how fast we can actually perceive it (and frankly I'd be skeptical of anyone that claims that the 8ms of input lag that an OLED is actually affecting your gameplay).

For light gun games, yeah, that timing might matter, but I'm not convinced it matters anywhere else.


LCDs have a further issue that CRTs do not have: transition time. When an LCD pixel is displaying black and it is driven to white, the voltage change across the driving transistor happens a lot faster than the change in brightness of the pixel (caused by the mechanical twisting of the crystal). This has opened the space for a lot of display marketers to play games with latency numbers. Often they will quote numbers for transitions between 2 similar grey levels rather than between full black and full white, which takes a lot longer.

CRTs don't have this issue at all. The phosphor lights up extremely quickly to maximum brightness, even from fully black. It's a bit slower for the phosphor to "cool back down" to black, but it's much faster than an LCD unless you're using a specific high-persistence phosphor. Typical consumer CRT monitors had a persistence in the low microseconds, except the IBM 5151 monochrome monitor which was much longer to give a stable, flicker-free image for heavy office work.


If you can run RetroArch at 240 Hz on an OLED in "game mode", you can use CRT Beam Simulation to get pretty close to the CRT feel for motion https://blurbusters.com/crt-simulation-in-a-gpu-shader-looks...

If you have an HDR TV, preferably OLED, and miss the CRT look, check out the RetroTink 4K https://www.retrotink.com/


>transparency-layering effects on things like Sonic the Hedgehog

That only worked because they expected to run over composite. Arcade cabinets used RGB which doesn't have the bandwidth limitations of composite.


Latency has improved in the last decade or so but yes, it is still off.

As John Carmack said once, we can send a data packet across the atlantic faster than we can get a pixel out the back of a computer nowadays.


Metal Slug and Garou looked fine-ish with 25% scanlines on LCD screens and 50% on PC CRT's.

My first exposure to Metal Slug was actually in regular emulators, and I never used the scanline filters, so now when I use the scanline filters in Metal Slug they feel..."wrong". In my mind, Metal Slug is supposed to have really sharp, chunky pixels.

Not my case; I'm old enough to play it at mid-late 90's in both bars and arcade rooms.

And that's the problem with current pixel art artists: they have no idea of what actual pixel art looked like. Hint: look at Garou with at least scanlines (or maybe a bilinear filter) enabled. That's what's Garou almost meant too look in CRT, far closer than raw pixel art.


I need to play Garou: Mark of the Wolves again, haven't touched that one in years. I believe that's the one that has a character named "Butt".

I've played a lot of Neo Geo games, and I even used to own a full MVS machine for awhile with its own CRT (mostly playing KOF 99), but I guess the scanlines never did much for me. I grew up playing the SNES and PlayStation and N64, but I almost equally grew up with emulators, so I guess I'm just used to the raw digital signal being displayed.


TBH pixel art on CRT's looked distinct, a bit smoother than LCD's. WIth just slight scanlines you could play the games well enough.

I now own a QD OLED that has a processing+display latency of 1.21 ms in 240hz, 1.83 in 60hz, and an unfortunate 7ms with 120hz + black frame insertion.

Displays are no longer the problem anymore, we're back to CRT speeds again.


Do you mind sharing which make & model that'd be?

Asus ROG PG32UCDM3, uses a Samsung 4th gen QD-OLED internally.

Its also the sibling model of the MSI MPG 322UR, and an upcoming unnamed Gigabyte model, so you have options if you want to get one.

Samsung sells their entire panel assembly (panel, polarizer and protection layer, carbon bonded heatsink, and unified controller assembly, but not the power supply) as one package deal, and all the monitors measure identically and have near identical feature sets.

I have mine setup to neuter HDR a bit in exchange for maximum contrast and no HDR thermal/power dimming.

    * image -> HDR settings -> true black 500, not gaming or console (both peak at 1k)
    * image -> HDR settings -> adjustable HDR (required for uniformed brightness)
    * image -> uniform brightness on (this prevents SDR content from triggering ABL dimming)
    * image -> vivid pixel: 0 (simple non-sharpening contrast enhancement)
    * OLED care -> screen saver -> all three dimming controls: off (outer vignettes to prioritize super-brights in the middle, global dims entire screen to preserve super-brights, screen dims if nothing moves for awhile)
    * system setup -> power setting -> performance mode
And in Windows, System -> Display -> HDR -> SDR content brightness of 31 hits 120 nits (the recommended SDR white value from ISO 3664, Rec 2100, etc).

If you're on SDR, set sRGB Cal mode and don't touch anything else in Image or Color, and it hard sets brightness to 120 nits. It is perfectly calibrated for the sRGB whitepoint, sRGB primaries, and even correctly does the sRGB piecewise gamma instead of the incorrect 2.4. Couldn't ask for more.

Oh, and the best part? I cannot calibrate this with a colorimeter and improve it... I have finally discovered a monitor that can actually do its goddamned job accurately.

We finally live in the future.


50ms latency would be extremely rough for games heavily reliant on frame perfect timing and lightning fast reflexes. I can't imagine playing Mike Tyson's Punchout for the NES with that kind of lag.

Punch-out and High Speed are my two test-games. If I can’t land the multiball shot in high speed at the first opportunity, and I can’t at least get past the teleporting tiger dude in Punch Out, it needs more work.

I’ve had initial attempts at an emulator set-up where I was losing lives on friggin’ Mario 1:1 though. Input and display latency so bad I was running into pits and stuff. Oof.


Ouch. I was pretty good at that game as a kid. A few years back, one of my friends got one of those NES Classic Minis which has Punchout on it, so I was pretty jazzed to give it shot.

All of my timing was off, even Bald Bull was giving me a hard time. I was super pleased about that. Been a long time since I’ve felt that close to a gamer's equivalent of a redout thanks to the absurd amount of latency.


That's a predictable response, but I think you need to keep up with the times. Modern gaming rigs can do single digit ms click-to-photon latency in hugely complex game engines that have fullscreen shaders, which this thing won't have.

If you're really concerned with the latency, use a modern gaming display and a sub-frame latency retro scaler (if it won't have a builtin one).


>or even outright wrong (see: transparency-layering effects on things like Sonic the Hedgehog)

If you're talking about the waterfalls, I'm not convinced blurring was necessary or intended. RGB support was rare in televisions in the USA, but it was common in PAL regions via a SCART cable, and the Mega Drive had native RGB output. Furthermore, the waterfalls are drawn as vertical lines, which I interpret as representing individual streams of water. If it was purely a pseudo-transparency effect it would make more sense to use a checkerboard pattern, e.g. as in the spotlight effect in Streets of Rage 2.


They do. One series often used is "No Fear Shakespeare". Facing-page "translation", relatively cheap.

It's much better to watch it performed, though. The context the actors provide gets one past much of the difficulty with vocabulary or what have you. But yeah they do insist on reading them in school.

> But it seems like it's taboo to read Shakespeare in anything but the original.

You're definitely losing most of the sublimity in his actual words, if you don't read the original. Especially if the "translation" is into English at e.g. a 9th-grade reading level.

In the case of Shakespeare in particular (and also certain archaic translations of the Bible, notably the King James) modernizing/simplifying it may alter the language enough that the reader may not recognize unacknowledged (because of course your reader will know their Shakespeare) quotes from his works in other works, which quotes are everywhere even in things like modern popular cinema or TV. A big part of why you read Shakespeare to begin with is that his influence is so extensive that you practically have to, or you'll be missing one of a very-few not just helpful, but nigh-necessary, keys to understanding the rest of English literature (broadly, to include things like movies and video games and TV and so on)


I wonder if there were street vendors selling little replicas of the wooden horse.

When I visited Troy, the museum's trojan horse replica said "Under Construction". Apparently it had been that way for months and months, which was pretty funny considering the original took only 3 days.

I had the same problem during my visit. It seems we can't build bridges, railroads, or Trojan horses nearly as fast as earlier generations could.

You might be interested in this, a list by Stripe's founder.

https://patrickcollison.com/fast


"Be careful building that thing! It might go off!"

I expect the downvotes are because rather than simply calling attention to and providing an interesting perspective on another area of weakness, you're also suggesting it's a mistake to address this one while the other exists, which suggestion isn't being well-received.

I don't need a diagnosis of my point. Perhaps I should explain further.

I'll say that it's more that the assertion that WhatsApp is a big issue is false. Civil servants know stuff is on the record, for example through screenshots from colleagues and the like which is a higher risk than actual control and security issues over WhatApp, so it's more of a distraction from the real security and ethical posture problems. Most of which occur though loose lipped jabbering to each other in the pub.

Security hygiene is terrible. Literally the worst. It scares the shit out of me if I'm honest.

If you think technology is a problem then the social issue are worse!


How many EU civil servants are there in London these days, I wonder?

A huge number of them. It's not like we don't work with the EU on a ton of things. Brexit didn't just pull the plug on everything.

> > scum people trying to destroy democracy and government services

> No need for hyperbolics, no one will take you seriously.

Everything but "scum" was just a statement of fact, though? I guess maybe people trying to wreck government services and subvert democracy might not qualify as "scum people" to everyone.


Key detail:

> Immigration authorities say the move is aimed at preventing cases in which foreign workers obtain visas under one category, but then engage in unrelated or lower-skilled work.

The claim appears to be that people were using up visa slots for things like interpreters or other jobs where clearly you'd need good language skills to actually do the job, including in Japanese, with the intent all along of doing some other job instead. An up-front test should let through almost all of the legitimate claimants of these visas, and stop almost all the fraudsters. Probably a lot cheaper than a similarly-effective level of after-the-fact auditing, or more-extensive checks into applicants' work situation.

[EDIT] I mean, in the framing provided by the government, the above appears to be what's going on. Governments may lie, of course.


Company founder in Japan here. This is largely how I read this specific news--its narrowly scoped to prevent patterns of abuse, which there have indeed been isolated cases tantamount to human trafficking.

That being said, there is a broader trend, that Japan's immigration authorities are becoming more foreigner-hostile, reflecting a broader political view shift in Japanese society (see: Sanseito political party) and one could argue in the US and globally.

One data point: a few months back we had one of our employees denied a Permanent Resident Visa due to a clerical error where our company forgot to notify the immigration bureau of an address change--we literally moved our office across the street, same city block. Our lawyer said such a case was unheard of a few years ago; these were always handled as simple corrections, instead the poor chap had to go to the back of the 9+ month waiting queue.

Our lawyer says the news is too new to know what concrete ramifications it will actually have on us, a tech company which uses English as the main language for engineering roles.


Relatively small clerical errors causing people to get permanent residency applications denied is becoming a trope. The ones I have heard:

- Client company address changed 4 years ago and the paperwork wasn't filed within 2 weeks.

- A late pension payment 2 years ago.

- Pension and health insurance were paid on time, but the date stamp on the physical payment slips was smudged and so "did not prove" that it was paid on time.

- City hall workers didn't send out health insurance slips in time, applicant (through no fault of their own) couldn't pay by the deadline.

This level of strictness is affecting people's lives, ability to make plans, get mortgages etc.

To add to this, permanent residency application times are now very long. After you complete your application some people are waiting nearly 2 years to get a response. There is a lot of vagueness about what happens if the rules change during your application period.


Unfortunately, tbis may be the simplest and most cost effective way to clear the backlog. It's unfortunately for people who in good faith made honest mistakes or were victims of honest mistakes. But it also may be a low cost way to filter out bad faith applicants who were never planning to pay pensions/taxes fully. An assymeytry of information means we never see the balance of honest mistake vs dodgy excuse makers.... Alos, Japan tends to play the grey zone of rule interpretation as a buffer zone for signalling hard feedback. it is generally periodic and ends after a while.

Is it just me or is 1 year excessively short for qualifying for PR? I'm a bit unsurprised that it results in less leniency in applications, there are probably just too many applications because the thresholds have gone down (not saying salary education etc requirements are trivial, but a far cry from the old wait 10 years).

I hate to say this is a strange "win-win" in the end (politically speaking). It'll be a little harder for Japanese companies to take advantage of foreigners, often trafficking them to quite shady working and living conditions with very little pay. This has potential to protect some foreigners from that situation here. Additionally, this looks like a "win" for the anti-foreigner crowd, because "now it's tougher to get a visa here, haha!"

So it's good for foreigners, while also placating the anti-foreigner group.

I know many foreigners here that work in absolutely atrocious working conditions, getting kicked by bosses, seeing crushing death of their coworkers in the factory (and still expected to return to the same unsafe work the next day), tiny wages while living half-dozen people in tiny apartments. It really is sad, and the problem is the companies... not the foreigners.


Seems like the guys covering his ass. Ive had visas denied in japan over small errors. I dont use visa lawyers anymore and no longer have this issue.

Might ofc also be that the immigration officers got tired of working till 10pm every day


Are you Japanese? What was your motivation behind founding in Japan?

Its not shocking, I see it implemented ie in Switzerland, where half of the world tries to get in. Since each part has their own language and none of that is english, its pretty important to exist in society for anything but brief visitors.

Its not restrictive as this (B2 is pretty high level in any language, here its weak B1) and resefved for 'higher' permits like C, for which you anyway need 10 years of residency in normal circumstances.

But japan is japan and one of most closed societies globally, nobody should be surprised by this.


Not exactly. I got (and renewed) the Swiss permit with zero knowledge of any official language. However, my wife had to present the basic certificate or my promise that she would learn the language.

Japan, ~like the US~, has no official language.

(edit: ~strike~)


Japan also tends to leave many contextual and obvious things unstated, and relies on group concensus and information exchange between in group peers over top down authority, so may consider the ultimate group concensus, language, not needing to be codified.

Although i do wonder what my son's 国語 text books teach if Japanese is not the official 国語.


> Japan, like the US, has no official language.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/03/desi...


POTUS doesn't have the power to set an official language.

It's not the Department of War, either. Still says that everywhere.

Legal documents, contracts, and court filings must continue to use Department of Defense because legally the Department of War doesn't exist.

Talk is cheap.

the US Dept of War is doing far more than just talk tho.

see also: half of the middle east on fire.


Actually they are following through, check the news

Why not? Maybe they do?

Except the Swiss are total arseholes about it, they won't even grant citizenship to people born there or who've lived there for twenty years and speak the language. Many want to cap total population at 10 million, we'll see what happens in June.

And twelve years ago, the Swiss voted to restrict EU FoM for itself and the backlash was instant.

Can't blame the government, this is the Swiss voting public doing their best to be dickheads.

Japan is a bunch of islands, yes it's pretty closed, but Switzerland is a land-locked village with fewer people than London and entirely dependent on trade and the movement of people and money for all they have, and barely a scrap of a language to call its own. English is super common there, probably as a way of democratically inconveniencing everyone.


No country in Europe automatically grants citizenship just because you were born there. That’s a US thing. The closest are places like France where you can get it at 18 if you were born in France and meet a few more criteria.

And because Switzerland has mandatory military service, a lot of men born in Switzerland don’t _want_ to naturalize, especially those with EU passports.

Switzerland isn’t really that much different from other EU countries when it comes to citizenship, except for the 10 year requirement. That one is on the high side.

But for some reason it gets a lot of press as a particularly difficult country to naturalize in.


> [Jus soli]'s a US thing

More accurately it's a New World thing. Almost all (30 out of 35) of the countries that have jus soli are North or South American. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli


It looks like they are proud of their country and want to keep it as is. They’ve seen what limitless immigration did to other countries and want none of it. Respect to them.

Switzerland has a fertility rate of about 1.4 and decreasing, unless they do something, there won't be much of a country left in a few generations. Solutions can involve immigration or natalism, but something has to change.

Japan is worse.


Or significantly increasing life-expectancy. Or new fertility technologies. A few generations is a long time.

The birth rates of the immigrant waves would presumably just plummet quickly anyway as they join the culture. Since that seems to have happened with all our other health problems.


I don’t know anything about Switzerland, but immigration isn’t a solution to the prospect of Japan “not having a country left in a few generations.” There might be more or fewer people living on the islands, but “Japan” will be gone either way.

Nowadays Japan’s fertility rate is higher than most of its neighbours. We are just used to pick it as an example because it started aging earlier than most other countries.

Japanese population is still over 120 million. Forecasts put it falling below 100 million at some point in the second half of this century.

Things will have to change in order to keep population stable in the long term, but the Japanese approach seems IMHO more sensible than that of other countries.

Cohesive democratic societies are fragile.


I can’t parse this statement. I’m not sure if this about culture changes or about climate threat.

[flagged]


Your idea of “racism” arose in a western historical context and simply has no application to Japan. Japan didn’t bring a bunch of people to their country by force and then enslave them and deny them political rights for hundreds of years.

Nation-states not only exist, the UN recognizes their existence as a human right in the The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The UN recognizes a right of “peoples”—groups of people bound together by culture, ancestry, language, etc.—to self determination. I was born in a country named after one ethnocultural group (Thailand) and my family is from another country named after our ethnocultural group (Bangladesh). Japan is the homeland of Japanese people, just as Thailand is the homeland of Tai people, and Bangladesh is the homeland of Bengali people.


Non-Japanese people don't be weird about Japan challenge (difficulty: impossible)

“Don’t think the whole world is America challenge” (difficulty: impossible)

Not sure why you keep on repeating that when nationalism is a thoroughly modern concept and not something that God handed down to us thousands of years ago. It's frankly bizarre for a Bengali born in Thailand and living (presumably, based on timezone) in North America to be so invested in defending the honor of the Japanese ethnostate on the orange hacker website.

Also, I don't know what you would call the historical (and even current) treatment of Zainichi Koreans other than "racism" (as well as the current treatment of immigrants from places like Bengladesh).


> Not sure why you keep on repeating that when nationalism is a thoroughly modern concept

The desire for cultural groups to form their own communities isn’t modern, it’s ancient. What arose in the 20th century—in the aftermath of colonialism—is the global recognition that these groups have a right to form nation-states. The recognition that right was a driving force across the world in the 20th century: Pan-Arab nationalism, Indian nationalism, Bengali nationalism, etc.

> It's frankly bizarre for a Bengali born in Thailand … to be so invested in defending the honor of the Japanese ethnostate on the orange hacker website.

Because your criticism of Japan undermines the legitimacy of the existence of countries like Bangladesh as well. My uncle didn’t get shot at by Pakistanis to establish a multicultural economic zone.

> Also, I don't know what you would call the historical (and even current) treatment of Zainichi Koreans other than "racism" (as well as the current treatment of immigrants from places like Bangladesh)

If Japan allows immigrants into the country then mistreats them, then that’s wrong. But that’s not what this article or my post is talking about.


How do you define "Japan"?

The nation state located on the islands of Japan populated with almost exclusively Japanese people.

Good news then: it's still going to be there in a hundred years!

It won't be if they start importing immigrants by the tens of millions.

they're islands mon ami, it's not hard to define them -- the borders are fairly straightforward

you can piddle around about a few tiny islands elsewhere, e.g. okinawa, but the main islands are undisputedly "japan"


Sounds like it will still exist then, barring climate catastrophe.

The standard way. The same way you define “Thailand” or “Bangladesh” or “Vietnam?”

It seems like "Japan" will very much still exist in either of your scenarios then.

The solution to a low fertility rate is to… destroy the country? What’s the difference?

[flagged]


This is the most divorced-man comment I've ever read.

And the most correct.

Idk why people who hate women can't resist telling on themselves like this. What makes you think this line of thinking is acceptable, or even rational?

The first paragraph in the GP comment makes a lot of sense. Just today I was listening to a program on NPR about birth control in Uganda - women were complaining about their husbands want more and more children. These women in Uganda were getting their contraceptives discreetly without their husbands knowledge.

When women are empowered they choose to have less kids.

(Another example of this is closer to home. Project 2025 wants to curtail contraceptives distribution and usage with the same goal: more kids. It is the same logic - diminish women’s power have re: pregnancy in order to increase birth rate)


A lot of people would rather live in their own aged society than a slightly younger foreign one.

Emphasis on slightly younger. Fertility is declining basically everywhere. Much of the developing world is now below replacement including India and China.


'A lot of people' usually means the predominately older strata of society. Japan has been having issues with the younger generation being locked out of employment and advancement because of older generations needing to hold onto their career with a death grip and retirement ages going up.

The aged society scam can only persist as long as they can exploit the younger generation. When that collapses, the end result is either going to be leaving the elderly to die or things start collapsing in new and interesting ways

The only reason why people 'prefer' this is for the same reason 'prefer' to believe climate change doesn't exist. Eventually reality catches up.


You've completely missed my point.

Immigration is not a long term solution to an aged society. The societies of target countries are aging as well and not far behind.

What you advocate is to bolster the work force of a country with a fertility rate of ~1 and falling, with people from a place with a fertility rate of ~2 and falling.


Africa has fertility rate 4.02 in 2025. Do you want Switzerland look like Africa?

There are numbers in between 1.4 and 4.02. There's no reason Switzerland would need to swing to the complete opposite end.

Africas fertility rate is declining massively as well.

Yes, by 2091 Africas fertility rate should be 2.1

This is the correct reality. If there would be public vote in surrounding countries, ie mosques would be banned there too (btw those standing and having permit before the vote keep functioning).

But none of the german, french, italian etc politicians have the balls to let society decide for themselves, controversial topic or not. And people then wonder why in extremely left-leaning country like France there is high popularity for extreme right parties.

Maybe british with their one self-kneecaping brexit vote cured them, but public voting in general was never on the table.

Swiss are the most free nation globally. At least I havent hears of any on similar level. They vote responsibly, heck they have 3x the amount of immigrants per capita then next top country in Europe, but they want only people who can find work there, plus they host tons of refugees. And yes they dont want to lose their unique identity, they have enough examples around them to be wary and smart. I'd say they do their share and some more


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I'm not saying you should ban mosques but when they do the whole call to prayer thing at 2am, I understand. Guessing you've never had to sleep any extended period of time near a mosque. If church bells rudely woke me up at 2am I'd understand the church banners too.

Well maybe molesting children and covering it up should be more of a reason to ban churches.

But I agree that should come under noise ordinances. I don’t care who someone chooses to worship as long as it doesn’t interfere with me.


It's a numbers game as to why, not an argument being raped isn't worse. Relatively fewer people have been raped by a priest. Easily 100+x have been sent into a rage by the fucking call to prayer at 120 decibels. People tend to get more upset about things they have actually experienced.

This discourse feels like you are deliberately pretending not to understand things.

My opinion should be obvious - all religion is illogical and does more harm than good.

Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

Please don't fulminate...

Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.

Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


>Switzerland is a land-locked village with fewer people than <one of the biggest cities in Europe> and entirely dependent on trade and the movement of people and money for all they have, and barely a scrap of a language to call its own.

Everything in that quote has been always been true though, and my guess is that they never allowed significant numbers of migrants at any time from about 800 (i.e., after the end of migration period) until whenever they started letting in large numbers of immigrants (some time after 1990 probably) (but not large enough numbers to suit you, I gather).


> lived there for twenty years and speak the language

Which one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Switzerland


This is completely untrue, right after obtaining C permit, you can apply for citizenship since its also 10 year residency requirement. Language requirement is lowest in countries I know, written test is a joke, blindly I did it online and it was above 90% without preparing at all, threshold is around 70% IIRC. Rarely there is committee after that, most people around got it after passing test.

Of course if you have active criminal record no point doing that. If you keep going away for 6+ months often it gets reset. If you have obviously lied on your tax return thats an issue too.

I know this intimately since right now going through this proces. One american colleague is doing the same. Right now, its much easier than ie in France.


Who cares about citizenship? I know Japanese expats. They don't speak Dutch and they keep their Japanese passport. They just get a permanent residence and everyone is happy.

We all know that there are two groups of foreigners: people from first world countries and the rest.

Ofcourse the Netherlands constitution says that you have to treat everyone equally but that's just hippie talk.


Are you sure about the Dutch part? AFAIK in almost all EU countries you have to have at least B1 language for permanent residency.

Such dickheads the Swiss voting public, how dare they exercise a direct democracy?! So inconveniencing!

Yeah, do they think they have a country or something? Don’t they know they’re just an economic zone between France, Italy, and Germany.

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Don't muslim citizens and foreign residents in Switzerland enjoy more rights than in pretty much any Muslim country?

There is definitely some hostility to some aspects of Islam, aspects which seem to only recently have become central to the exercise of worship for some (the veiling of women for instance), yet this has not translated to some outright discrimination of muslims. Bosnian and Albanian immigrants for instance appear to have been integrated and/or assimilated into society.


> Don't muslim citizens and foreign residents in Switzerland enjoy more rights than in pretty much any Muslim country?

That’s a great observation, and probably true in the case of every single liberal western democracy. Especially if you’re a woman, gay, etc.


> Except the Swiss are total arseholes about it, they won't even grant citizenship to people born there or who've lived there for twenty years and speak the language.

Japan has those issues as well, look up Zainichi Koreans


These days Zainichi Koreans are granted citizenship pretty much automatically if they request it. But some choose not to, mostly because they prefer to retain Korean citizenship instead (Japan does not allow dual citizenship).

Yes, previously they were forced to choose Japanese names to naturalize, but this has not been the case for a long time.


There's also the issue of people going to Japan to buy out several properties to then rent them out.

I don't believe there are residency requirements to ownership so the people doing that do not need to go through this flow at all. Just an entirely separate issue, though it might be tackled.

I do have the impression Tokyo is getting similar dynamics to the rest of the world on this front: builders don't care where the money is coming from and so if money from outside the country can get buildings built they're happy.

A friend of mine moved into a sold-out Yokohama tower mansion recently... and despite the bike and car parking being fully booked even more than 6 months in it was _quite_ empty. I have a feeling a lot of people are buying into the market expecting to get easy rental money and not really seeing it.


But if it's empty then it's not rented out, so why the whole exercise? Park their money?

I don't know how verifiable it is, but the general narrative has been a lot is Chinese parking their money outside the reach of the CCP. I've never quite understood the mechanics of this though.

basically, yes.

the chinese government owns all land and all banks. they snap their fingers and you have nothing.

you put it into japanese, usa, canadian housing, etc. etc. under a company flagged in bermuda and you're covered.


Apparently they’re listed but people aren’t biting? Though this was a while back so maybe things have changed

Is that a thing? I remember a few years ago when they added a bunch of regulations to rentals that raised the costs.

I'm guessing they get a business visa based on claiming revenue from the rentals, then use that to sponsor more people as employees.

As for regulation costs, airbnbs are notorious for not adhering to regulations. Depends on how well Japan is able to police it.


There are no residence requirements for buying property in Japan. So... what?

Unlike banks, many services, some Rakuten subpages, etc requiring full width, I have found real estate sites (purchase, not rent) to be the most likely to accept half-width roman characters for the name input box.

From what I have heard, japan tacks on lots of extra costs/taxes for this situation.

I'm noticing one major early effect of them is making extensive, visually consistent, very impressive slide decks accessible to individual workers who need to actually do real work and wouldn't ordinarily have time to make those.

The result is an explosion of pretty bullshit-heavy documents flying around our org, which management loves but which is definitely, so far, net-harmful to productivity.

This comes out if you start asking questions about the documents. "Which of a couple reasonable senses of [term] do you mean, here?" they'll stumble because that was just something the LLM pulled out of the probability-cluster they'd steered it to and they left in because it seemed right-ish, not because they'd actually thought about it and put it there on purpose. They're basically reading it for the first time right alongside you, LOL. Wonderful. So LLM. Much productivity. Wow.

Anyway, since a lot of what managers and execs do is making those kinds of diagrams and tables and such in slide decks, and their own self-marketing within the company is heavily tied to those, I expect they see this great aid to selfishly productive but company un-productive activity as a sign these things will be at least as big a boon to real work. Probably why they still haven't figured out how wrong that is. I suppose they're gonna need a real kick in the ass before they figure out that being good at squeezing their couple novel elements into a big, pretty, standardized, custom-styled but standards-conforming diagram padded out with statistical-likelihoods doesn't translate to being similarly good at everything.


In the '90s I was ready to jack in. More computers, and getting me closer to them? Awesome.

By the 20-teens I was repulsed by the idea and kinda hated computers.

Today if you put a magic button in front of me that'd permanently un-invent the Internet, good odds I'd press it.


I can jot out a system diagram on paper way better and faster than I can on a computer. Ditto UI design mockups. Having something that can translate those into a better computerized representation than a png is awesome. Paper -> graphviz/Mermaid/whatever, LOL.

This holds even with really-nice drawing interfaces like ProCreate on a 13" iPad. Paper's still better for some things. Outside of work, the way I make maps (of just about any zoom-level) for RPGs I run is to sketch them on paper, take a photo of that and import it to pro-create, trace the lines there (in a new layer), and add color/texture. I get way better results faster, and am way less frustrated, than if I start with a blank "sheet" on the iPad. The paper sitting fully flat on my table, being able to easily and precisely turn it this way and that, erasing or smudging out or just X-ing elements I mess up, plus just messing up way less to begin with, all that adds up to real paper being a way better UI for an initial draft-sketch, for me.


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