Fresh looks seriously cool! I'm especially fond of the plugins concept for bringing in compiled assets like Markdown and SCSS. And Getting started with a `deno run` command is very exciting for new-comers too!
Shameless-self promotion: I've been working on a similar web framework built on Deno and Cloudflare Workers. It's called Keywork[1] and it's made for folks who would like to create web apps for the V8 runtime, without getting too attached to a single cloud provider.
Keywork has powered all my projects as of recently, but Fresh looks like a serious contender. I would love to chat with the Deno team if they're floating around this HN thread! You're creating amazing stuff!
Disclosure: I maintain an open source web component library.
This is a strange take on what I think the author is fighting against: a less open web platform. What confuses me is how the adoption of Web Components will somehow make things worse than they already are. Take a look at any contemporary web framework and you'll see there's little overlap in compatibility or portability -- sometimes even between versions of the same library!
I've seen first hand how difficult web components can be, but they're still a better solution than trusting the foundations of the web to the teams at Angular or React. In my opinion we need an API that lets young developers start their web apps with plain HTML/CSS/JS without experiencing into the same decades-old issues that created frameworks in the first place. How should an intermediate developer beging organizing their CSS? Or importing helpful libraries? Or even something as simple as making a reusable HTML template without spending any time in Webpack?
The truth is that we don't have easy answers for these aspiring developers, and we won't get any sympathy from them by demanding the web return to it's document roots. I think Web Components can solve all these issues with some guidance from the community. The platform is ready and so are we.
I am inclined to agree with this comment indeed.
Having had to learn a lot about these things recently (and trying to stay away from frameworks), it is quite difficult to not feel 'boxed in' by the rules imposed by React, Vue, etc.
I feel as though one is encouraged to learn a framework instead of the basics. Having learned the basics, I can now see why there are frameworks, and what their uses are, but often I wonder whether people decide to do something in [x] framework to make their work sound cool, before even knowing what it is they are building.
I absolutely agree. Not only can Web Components simplify web development and lower the barrier to entry, they can also bridge the gap between frameworks and the modern modular web.
As a developer who works in an enterprise environment, frameworks like React and Angular are our boon and bane. Beyond the advertised features, they are amazing at providing repeatable patterns for developers and offer structure to large and small projects alike. And in my experience, they have proven to be significantly smaller, more performant, and more maintainable than the vanilla JS apps that were being delivered to clients previously. Also, it is because of legacy browsers that we still need all the features these libraries and frameworks provide. Many of our clients are just now moving away from IE 10 and 11, and tools like these have kept us all sane.
So we take the cost of learning frameworks, bundling through webpack, and being tied into proprietary ecosystems, because the trade off is worth it to us when our focus is delivering value to the business and functionality to our customers.
Enter Web Components. Trying to maintain branding, coherent styles, accessibility, and a cohesive user experience across an entire enterprise can be a huge undertaking. Common component libraries help, but the multiple frameworks used throughout a company can result in duplicated and triplicated work. Web Components offer us the promise of creating these assets once and including them in any application we build, regardless of framework. And since they are spec compliant and framework agnostic, changing to a new framework--or no framework--in the future doesn't have the added cost of rewriting every component to match the new lib/framework API.
To address some other comments here, it's worth discussing who controls the specs, and what's the right path for the future of the web, but we still have to develop for the world we live in today.
I think what's more confusing than ASI are the mental gymnastics developers go through to justify typing semicolons daily, rather than installing a linter once, or reading the ASI spec.
Python and Ruby support semicolons for occasional statement termination; why is JavaScript any different? I can't help but think "semicolons by default" would be regarded as ritualistic if the practice was never popularized in the first place.
Does pressing a key on the home row really require a lot of justification? A project doesn't care how effective my tooling is if the next person doesn't have it.
Nirrius Studio | Front-end developer | New York, NY | INTERNS | PART-TIME | https://nirri.us
WHO WE ARE:
Nirrius is a consultant firm specializing in web development and technical mentorship. Our journey started with training developers with industry standards such as React/Redux and Node.js. Our mission is to perfect the front-end web development experience.
WHAT WE'RE BUILDING:
2018 generated the most buzzwords in web development history. Developers are expected to know React, Redux, Sagas, Webpack, Babel — the list goes on... These tools have served our growing demands of the front-end, but they always have a rise and fall. A library reaches popularity, and the web browser catches up.
We believe browsers have reached another level of maturity. And a simpler, native approach web development is within reach.
We call it: <my-app /> — An open source native web components library and framework.
WHO YOU ARE:
- You are determined, a self-starter, and in active pursuit of new knowledge and experience.
- You have some web development experience and are looking to expand your skill set.
- You're ready for three months of training in front-end, dev-ops, content writing, and developer relations.
Send us your resume and tell us what you'd like to study at teffen @ nirri.us with "Hacker News" in the subject line.
Nirrius Studio | Front-end developer | New York, NY | INTERNS | PART-TIME | https://nirri.us
WHO WE ARE:
Nirrius is a technology firm specializing in web development and technical training. Our team is composed of creative professionals in the pursuit of a more perfect developer experience. We're bent on building simpler tools, and slaying buzzwords.
WHO YOU ARE:
- You are determined, a self-starter, and in active pursuit of new knowledge and experience.
- You have some web development experience and looking to flesh out your skills.
- You're ready for a three month journey through web software fundamentals.
WHAT WE'RE BUILDING:
<my-app />, a new open source native web components library and framework. "My App"[1] is our vision for a simpler experience building web apps. Our team provides training for front-end, dev-ops, content writing, and developer relations.
Reach out and tell us your story at teffen @ nirri.us with "Hacker News" in the subject line.
An experienced web engineer, product strategist, and designer.
After working in several startups I’ve had the opportunity to do a bit of everything. I’m a 10x engineer on the front-end and experienced in video game production. I'm looking for a role that focus on creative vision, marketing -- and some heads down programming when needed.
Hi there! My name is Teffen and I'm a product engineer with 10 years of experience at big and small companies. I like to wear a lot of hats and help companies refine their vision for market fit. I'm also experienced in engineer mentorship and have taught several workshops on creating software for non-technical customers. I'm currently managing a creative studio that helps companies fill in all the small parts that make product launches feel great. Some of my recent projects include data visuals for tech events, developer relations consulting -- and as of lately, writing a screenplay and soundtrack for a VR movie!
Web Engineer (Apps Team) Engineering | San Francisco, CA | Full Time | Onsite
Cloudflare is building a better Internet. Cloudflare runs one of the world’s largest distributed networks that powers more than 1.5 trillion pageviews each month across 5 million Internet properties. More than 10 percent of all global Internet requests flow through Cloudflare’s network.
We're looking for a developer to help create the next generation of our apps platform[0].
Our team's goal is to make Cloudflare the easiest way to build on the web.
We believe in working collaboratively with an emphasis on personal growth and responsibility. This is a role that lets you wear many hats, spearhead new projects, and shape your career.
# Our ideal candidate...
- Has curiosity and a deep desire to build compelling products used by millions.
- Has knowledge of native web APIs.
- Is familiar with modern tools such as React, Redux, and Babel.
# Perks
We offer competitive salaries, equity, a fantastic health benefits plan, a new laptop, monthly commuter reimbursement, and the opportunity to work with a smart, motivated team where you will see your impact daily.
Sound like somewhere you'd thrive? We'd love to hear from you. Email your resume to teffen+hn @ cloudflare dot com and a short paragraph to introduce yourself.
Cloudflare is a company that values security. All prospective employees will be subject to a background check.
We care deeply about making tech a more inclusive and diverse place. Cloudflare is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate against any employee or applicant on the basis of age, color, disability, gender, national origin, race, religion, sexual orientation, veteran status, or any classification protected by federal, state, or local law.
Web Engineer (Apps Team)
Engineering | San Francisco, CA | Full Time | Onsite
Cloudflare is building a better Internet. Cloudflare runs one of the world’s largest distributed networks that powers more than 1.5 trillion pageviews each month across 5 million Internet properties. More than 10 percent of all global Internet requests flow through Cloudflare’s network.
We're looking for a developer to help create the next generation of our apps platform[0].
Our team's goal is to make Cloudflare the easiest way to build on the web.
We believe in working collaboratively with an emphasis on personal growth and responsibility. This is a role that lets you wear many hats, spearhead new projects, and shape your career.
# Our ideal candidate...
- Has curiosity and a deep desire to build compelling products used by millions.
- Has knowledge of native web APIs.
- Is familiar with modern tools such as React, Redux, and Babel.
# Perks
We offer competitive salaries, equity, a fantastic health benefits plan, a new laptop, monthly commuter reimbursement, and the opportunity to work with a smart, motivated team where you will see your impact daily.
Sound like somewhere you'd thrive? We'd love to hear from you. Email your resume to teffen+hn @ cloudflare dot com and a short paragraph to introduce yourself.
Cloudflare is a company that values security. All prospective employees will be subject to a background check.
We care deeply about making tech a more inclusive and diverse place. Cloudflare is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate against any employee or applicant on the basis of age, color, disability, gender, national origin, race, religion, sexual orientation, veteran status, or any classification protected by federal, state, or local law.
Shameless-self promotion: I've been working on a similar web framework built on Deno and Cloudflare Workers. It's called Keywork[1] and it's made for folks who would like to create web apps for the V8 runtime, without getting too attached to a single cloud provider.
Keywork has powered all my projects as of recently, but Fresh looks like a serious contender. I would love to chat with the Deno team if they're floating around this HN thread! You're creating amazing stuff!
- [1] https://keywork.app